Google’s Nest fiasco harms user trust and invades their privacy • Hacker News Board

Re: Google’s Nest fiasco harms user trust and invades their privacy

#31

Post by hedora » Sat, Mar 16, 2019, 2:42 PM UTC

iforgotpassword wrote: post #19

I suspect this is going to be an unpopular opinion, but I still don't get the fuzz. People buy crap like Amazon echo left and right, and have been carrying little computers with microphones and an internet connection around all day for even longer. Apart from the fact that any sane person shouldn't trust any google product value their privacy in the first place, how many people are there consciously not buying a smar…

The reason I think it’s news: I agree Google products are a privacy dumpster fire, and even think some people that bought the nest thingy agree.

The part that is news for me: Google is (inadvertently?) moving the bar of acceptable behavior to “we’ll plant microphones (and other surveillance hardware capabilities) in devices now, wait until you start relying on unrelated functionality, then totally issue a press release before we turn them on and start slurping your data.”

Re: Google’s Nest fiasco harms user trust and invades their privacy

#32

Post by baybal2 » Sat, Mar 16, 2019, 2:47 PM UTC

I think that experience with abandonware will for long scare away regular people from all that IOT stuff.

My own position has for long been that all that IoTness needs to be "invisible," or otherwise it turns the thing into an annoying toy:

I've seen people throwing away their smart assistants already. A lot of people get quite surprised that the famed speaker is far more than just a speaker and tries to insert itself into your breakfast conversation. And those annoying, repeated "Internet connection failure," I think a few people threw them out just because of that.

Re: Google’s Nest fiasco harms user trust and invades their privacy

#33

Post by iamrobschiavone » Sat, Mar 16, 2019, 2:47 PM UTC

jstanley wrote: post #11

baxtr wrote: post #5

I have said this before: the reason why people find a hidden camera much worse than a visible camera is simple. People aren’t dumb, they make trade-off choices . Of course they could spy on you with a visible camera, too. But either you know and don’t care and still buy the damn thing or you don’t. Knowing means in this case being able to make an informed decision. Not informing customers about a camera inside a home…

I agree with you in principle, but I think the Nest actually only includes a hidden microphone, not a hidden camera.

Yep, it's "only" a microphone, but it's still an inexcusable breach of trust.

Re: Google’s Nest fiasco harms user trust and invades their privacy

#34

Post by renholder » Sat, Mar 16, 2019, 2:48 PM UTC

iforgotpassword wrote: post #19

I suspect this is going to be an unpopular opinion, but I still don't get the fuzz. People buy crap like Amazon echo left and right, and have been carrying little computers with microphones and an internet connection around all day for even longer. Apart from the fact that any sane person shouldn't trust any google product value their privacy in the first place, how many people are there consciously not buying a smar…

>...how many people are there consciously not buying a smartphone in fear of it being used to spy on them...

I'd say that the number is relatively small to non-existent but that might have more to do with the fact that cell phones are more a requirement for day-to-day life than anything else.

For example, try to sign-up for paging services, as a means to replace your cellphone with a passive-only device, and see how far you can actually get with that idea.

Or try to buy a CRT-TV.[0]

At some point you have to concede that means to go against society's trends are no longer there, unless you make them yourself - and most people either don't have the resources nor the time or a combinations of either to do that.

[0] - https://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=lp_560864_nr_p_n_feature_thre...

Re: Google’s Nest fiasco harms user trust and invades their privacy

#35

Post by reaperducer » Sat, Mar 16, 2019, 2:51 PM UTC

iforgotpassword wrote: post #19

I suspect this is going to be an unpopular opinion, but I still don't get the fuzz. People buy crap like Amazon echo left and right, and have been carrying little computers with microphones and an internet connection around all day for even longer. Apart from the fact that any sane person shouldn't trust any google product value their privacy in the first place, how many people are there consciously not buying a smar…

little computers with microphones and an internet connection around all day for even longer

The difference is that we know our phones have microphones and cameras and internet.

The reason people are upset is because there was no way anyone would know they added an internet-connected microphone to their home with this device unless they opened it up and reverse engineered the firmware.

If anyone can prove that these microphones were turned on without the owner’s consent — even just for “telemetry” or “quality assurance” — then criminal charges will follow.

Re: Google’s Nest fiasco harms user trust and invades their privacy

#36

Post by hedora » Sat, Mar 16, 2019, 2:51 PM UTC

propogandist wrote: post #30

Zelphyr wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think yours is an important question that few people realize which is; these companies are legally required to tell you when they are listening to you, or even potentially listening to you. Google "accidentally" forgot to tell people that they included a mic in those devices. That's still illegal.

Google admitted to congress they're constantly tracking people via their devices >Hawley pointed out on Tuesday that a user's location is sent to Google hundreds of times a day, even when the phone is not in use. In fact, Hawley said, a user's location is tracked "every four minutes, or 14 times an hour, roughly 340 times during a 24-hour period," even when the phone is not in use. >DeVries confessed that "location i…

This has been well-known for a while, so the story itself isn’t news.

(The fact that congress called them in to testify is news, since it means maybe some politicians are going to make noises about how unacceptable this is, or perhaps even introduce a bill.)

Re: Google’s Nest fiasco harms user trust and invades their privacy

#37

Post by reaperducer » Sat, Mar 16, 2019, 2:54 PM UTC

renholder wrote: post #34

iforgotpassword wrote: post #19

I suspect this is going to be an unpopular opinion, but I still don't get the fuzz. People buy crap like Amazon echo left and right, and have been carrying little computers with microphones and an internet connection around all day for even longer. Apart from the fact that any sane person shouldn't trust any google product value their privacy in the first place, how many people are there consciously not buying a smar…

> ...how many people are there consciously not buying a smartphone in fear of it being used to spy on them... I'd say that the number is relatively small to non-existent but that might have more to do with the fact that cell phones are more a requirement for day-to-day life than anything else. For example, try to sign-up for paging services, as a means to replace your cellphone with a passive-only device, and see how…

try to sign-up for paging services, as a means to replace your cellphone with a passive-only device, and see how far you can actually get with that idea.

Pagers are still used in some industries, like healthcare, where people can die if a message doesn’t get through. Pagers are still more reliable than text messages and cell phones in many locations and especially inside large buildings like hospitals. Though the industry is switching.

Re: Google’s Nest fiasco harms user trust and invades their privacy

#38

Post by pdkl95 » Sat, Mar 16, 2019, 2:54 PM UTC

iamrobschiavone wrote: post #33

jstanley wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you in principle, but I think the Nest actually only includes a hidden microphone, not a hidden camera.

Yep, it's "only" a microphone, but it's still an inexcusable breach of trust.

The breach of trust is bad enough, but the fact that it is a microphone opens the possibility of criminal wiretapping charges.

Re: Google’s Nest fiasco harms user trust and invades their privacy

#39

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Mar 16, 2019, 2:59 PM UTC

hgjwq wrote: post #2

>“The on-device microphone was never intended to be a secret and should have been listed in the tech specs,” a Google spokesperson said. “That was an error on our part.” I don't know, it sounds believable. Maybe they put it there "just in case", but didn't want to put it in the list of specifications because it had no software support, and having it there would've mislead customers who could've thought the microphone…

[deleted]

Re: Google’s Nest fiasco harms user trust and invades their privacy

#40

Post by pdkl95 » Sat, Mar 16, 2019, 3:10 PM UTC

reaperducer wrote: post #37

renholder wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...how many people are there consciously not buying a smartphone in fear of it being used to spy on them... I'd say that the number is relatively small to non-existent but that might have more to do with the fact that cell phones are more a requirement for day-to-day life than anything else. For example, try to sign-up for paging services, as a means to replace your cellphone with a passive-only device, and see how…

try to sign-up for paging services, as a means to replace your cellphone with a passive-only device, and see how far you can actually get with that idea. Pagers are still used in some industries, like healthcare, where people can die if a message doesn’t get through. Pagers are still more reliable than text messages and cell phones in many locations and especially inside large buildings like hospitals. Though the ind…

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2014/08/11...

"Why one of cybersecurity’s thought leaders [Dan Geer] uses a pager instead of a smart phone"