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California declared drought free for first time in seven years

reuters.com

201–210 of 242 posts

Re: California declared drought free for first time in seven years

#201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mandatory aquifer recharging would be a good first step. One of the big problems is that California can't adequately take advantage of these wet winters because the reservoirs can only hold so much and the ground can only absorb water so fast, so a lot of water ends up getting into the rivers and escaping back into the Pacific (or sits in ephemeral lakes/ponds/wetlands until it evaporates). If we helped along the pro…

I think the main reason we don't have desalination plants is because they have to be on or near the ocean, which is the most expensive property in the state. No one wants to ruin their view or have a big industrial machine near their home. Basically, I think NIMBYism keeps us from having Desal.

Not really. Desalination plant built & proposed locations have largely been adjacent to power plants or wastewater facilities.

The main reason we don't have desalination plants is that the water is more expensive than other sources, they're expensive to run, consume a lot of power, and you have to deal with the brine effluent.

Imported water and even purified recycled wastewater(potable reuse) are cheaper. In the case of the desalination plant in Carlsbad, desalinated water is about $2.1-2.4k per acre-foot whereas imported water is ~$1k and potable reuse had an estimate of $1.7-1.9k per acre-foot for the San Diego region(OC's potable reuse is cheaper at ~$800 per acre-foot, but trying to keep similar comparisons).

Power comprises most of the cost of desalination for the high pressures required for the membranes to work. I think it's 5 megawatt hours per acre-foot, but those were somewhat dated figures. While one could deal with blending the brine with wastewater treatment plant effluent or power plant cooling water, the greater reclamation of wastewater and the California Coastal Commission cracking down harder on the discharge of power plant cooling water is complicating things.

Desalination is an expensive commitment that produces at a slower rate than other sources. If you have a wet year, you're still stuck with the production commitment. It's great for water security though.

Re: California declared drought free for first time in seven years

#202
post #119
post #82

To first order, California's water problem is agricultural. And that's because there's no market in that water that would curtail what is a very low value use of it. Fix that, or resort to fractional measures that just paper over the underlying dysfunction.

I always cringe when I hear markers and water in the same sentence. I’m not sure what exactly you mean by “markets” but the history of water rights in CA is a great lesson highlighting how spectacularly “markets” can fail to handle water.

What are you talking about? The Western water rights system (prior appropriation) is the opposite of markets. It basically lets the first person to tap the public resource use unlimited amounts of it for free. That’s not a market.

Re: California declared drought free for first time in seven years

#203
post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying there are no water rights in the current system? If there are, what's wrong with being able to trade them?

The very wealthy buying all the water and selling it at a huge markup with poor people dying of thirst.

Wow, that's some serious imagination you have there. It wouldn't work anything like that, of course.

Re: California declared drought free for first time in seven years

#204
post #170
post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who sets the price and what stops the very wealthy from buying it all and selling it for a giant profit. The further we go down this train of thought the less market-like it becomes very quickly.

It's a market. The first owner sets the price at whatever point they like, balancing their interests of revenue, protecting the resource, and so forth. If people are arbitraging & selling the water for increased prices, the first owner increases their price and eliminates the arbitrage opportunity.

How do you get a first owner for water?

Re: California declared drought free for first time in seven years

#205
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always cringe when I hear markers and water in the same sentence. I’m not sure what exactly you mean by “markets” but the history of water rights in CA is a great lesson highlighting how spectacularly “markets” can fail to handle water.

What are you talking about? The Western water rights system (prior appropriation) is the opposite of markets. It basically lets the first person to tap the public resource use unlimited amounts of it for free. That’s not a market.

I think you might have replied to the wrong person. I agree with you.

Re: California declared drought free for first time in seven years

#206
post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The very wealthy buying all the water and selling it at a huge markup with poor people dying of thirst.

Wow, that's some serious imagination you have there. It wouldn't work anything like that, of course.

This is what happened in CA to a lesser degree.

Re: California declared drought free for first time in seven years

#207
post #204
post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a market. The first owner sets the price at whatever point they like, balancing their interests of revenue, protecting the resource, and so forth. If people are arbitraging & selling the water for increased prices, the first owner increases their price and eliminates the arbitrage opportunity.

How do you get a first owner for water?

Are you being intentionally obtuse? I just described two ways. There's Right of first use, Riparian rights, and my pet illustrative example of treating it as a publicly held asset to be sold... There's other ways beyond those three, but the first two are how ownership is assigned in the US today.

Re: California declared drought free for first time in seven years

#208

They need to completely change the way water in California is billed. Right now rates keep going up as we get better at conservation, which disincentives conservation. At the same time, in areas with a flat rate, people use way too much water. When Sacramento had a flat rate, you'd see people turn on their hose as they left for work and let it flood their lawn all day, running into the street, to keep their lush gree…

California's water problems would mostly be solved if there was just a normal universal water price system based on supply and demand.

This will never happen.

Instead we have the most arcane and bizarre un-system imaginable, with enormous amounts of water given for free to people who don't need it, and other water being very expensive for people in dire need. And everything you can and can't imagine in between.

To be fair, there were a few desperately needed reforms during the drought years, but my perhaps overly cranky estimate is that 80% of the madness remain.

Happy to be proven wrong :)

Re: California declared drought free for first time in seven years

#209
post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are you talking about? The Western water rights system (prior appropriation) is the opposite of markets. It basically lets the first person to tap the public resource use unlimited amounts of it for free. That’s not a market.

I think you might have replied to the wrong person. I agree with you.

You're wildly contradicting yourself.

California is both an example of how markets can't handle water, and has also never had markets in water.

Re: California declared drought free for first time in seven years

#210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the main reason we don't have desalination plants is because they have to be on or near the ocean, which is the most expensive property in the state. No one wants to ruin their view or have a big industrial machine near their home. Basically, I think NIMBYism keeps us from having Desal.

"Basically, I think NIMBYism keeps us from having Desal." That's exactly the problem. There might be ways around it, though: * Build 'em adjacent to (or as part of) existing "ugly" structures, like coastal power plants (which already use seawater for cooling/steam; I'd assume it should be possible to clean/desalinate the used water instead of letting it flow back into the ocean) * Pipe the water further inland; the p…

That’s not really it at all. Santa Barbara built a desalination plant in the throes of the last drought (1991). Right about the time they finished it, it started raining, and they mothballed it almost immediately. The plant was only recently recommissioned, at the end of the most recent drought.

The issue is that 99 percent of the time, you can get water a lot cheaper from another source. Due to the mechanics of reverse osmosis, desalination plants have to run all the time to keep the membranes from being damaged, so you end up paying for expensive water in the midst of the rainy season.

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