Live data from Hacker News

DARPA Is Building a $10M, Open-Source, Secure Voting System

motherboard.vice.com

261–270 of 303 posts

Re: DARPA Is Building a $10M, Open-Source, Secure Voting System

#261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is missing two completely unnecessary failure modes that pen and paper don't have: 1. You cannot know whether the device leaks your vote, i.e., whether your vote is secret. Mind you that in addition to an attack inside the device, this can also happen via simple electromagnetic side channels inherent in the device--as has been demonstrated quite a while ago for Nedap voting computers by the dutch campaign agains…

> Neither of those failure modes exist with paper ballots. Paper ballots stop secret cameras in the ballot room? I mean, they really don't. It depends on your threat-model. A lot of things will come down to trust. > 2. When the device malfunctions, whether due to a defect or sabotage, and only particular candidates can not be selected, that creates a side channel where the voter is effectively forced to unveil who th…

> Paper ballots stop secret cameras in the ballot room?

And neither do touchscreens. Paper is better if it's not done comically wrong.

And even the worst paper ballots have a much smaller attack surface for plain old analog rumors than the best possible electronic system. The most powerful way to undermine a democracy is not flipping some votes to one candidate in perfect secrecy, it's making all candidates/camps believe that the other did. This could destroy a democracy even without a single vote having actually been tampered with.

Electronic voting, only understood by experts, is perfect soil for such rumors and no amount of open sourcing can change that. The many human counters involved in a hierarchical paper vote counting scheme are not just an unfortunate inefficiency left over from a time when machines could not count yet, they also serve as witnesses, not only for keeping their peers in check but also for dampening any unfounded rumors that might come up. They increase trust even when they are not actively speaking up against rumors, just by being there, in numbers, as passive dampening elements like the moderator rods in a fission plant.

Re: DARPA Is Building a $10M, Open-Source, Secure Voting System

#263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is missing two completely unnecessary failure modes that pen and paper don't have: 1. You cannot know whether the device leaks your vote, i.e., whether your vote is secret. Mind you that in addition to an attack inside the device, this can also happen via simple electromagnetic side channels inherent in the device--as has been demonstrated quite a while ago for Nedap voting computers by the dutch campaign agains…

> Neither of those failure modes exist with paper ballots. Paper ballots stop secret cameras in the ballot room? I mean, they really don't. It depends on your threat-model. A lot of things will come down to trust. > 2. When the device malfunctions, whether due to a defect or sabotage, and only particular candidates can not be selected, that creates a side channel where the voter is effectively forced to unveil who th…

> Paper ballots stop secret cameras in the ballot room?

Ballot rooms are just about as decentralised and non-standard as it's possible to get your head around. Voting machines are the exact opposite.

Are we actually discussing that someone could or would roll out a (nationwide?) network of hidden cameras across church halls, schools, and other places[0] where people go to cast paper ballots. Undetected?

Distributing compromised software - or designing your attack into the hardware - for voting machines would be child's play by comparison.

[0] https://www.theguardian.com/politics/gallery/2015/may/07/wei...

Re: DARPA Is Building a $10M, Open-Source, Secure Voting System

#264
post #60

Why does this keep coming up? What is the compelling argument against paper ballots? There is no need for results to be known immediately, so how does making voting an exercise done by computers make anything better, particularly when computers are much more vulnerable to remote interference?

Aren't counting ballots always wrong? Like every time there is a recount the number changes... What's wrong with electronic ballots? If we can have a secure and audit-able banking system (and every other aspect of our lifes), surely we can have the same for voting?

> What's wrong with electronic ballots?

First of all, you can't observe the counting project, and now if somebody want to mess with the results, it becomes super easy to do so.

Electronic voting is a great opportunity for dictatorship.

Re: DARPA Is Building a $10M, Open-Source, Secure Voting System

#265
post #60

Why does this keep coming up? What is the compelling argument against paper ballots? There is no need for results to be known immediately, so how does making voting an exercise done by computers make anything better, particularly when computers are much more vulnerable to remote interference?

"What is the compelling argument against paper ballots?" Repudiation, verification etc.. I suggest this technology is part of a 'pro democracy' agenda, as opposed to some kind of existential need within the US. The tech might ostensibly be destined for S. America, Africa and parts of Asia.

>I suggest this technology is part of a 'pro democracy' agenda

The opposite is true, for example Russian government is actively pushing for electronic voting at the moment. No more videos like this [1], only the number "your dictator got 70% of people's votes"

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzl2UXV1U_A

Re: DARPA Is Building a $10M, Open-Source, Secure Voting System

#269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like burning an orchard for a few bad apples. It's this really that large of a concern vs voter fraud?

Yes. The U.S. originally did not use secret ballots in federal elections and we switched to them because of widespread coercion. A durable record that maps votes to voters does not prevent voter fraud, it enables it.

computers enable easy mass voter fraud... so we need to stay with paper ballot or we need a way to see if our vote is in the total number of votes, coercion aside...

Re: DARPA Is Building a $10M, Open-Source, Secure Voting System

#270
I know it is being beaten to death, but a major issue with voting is the counting part. The counting is where the fraud is being perpetrated (and no, I'm not so naive to think it doesn't happen). Seattle. Minneapolis. Milwaukee. Detroit. Philadelphia. Broward County. And those are just recent examples.

I think there is counting fraud from sea to shining sea. What are we going to do to make the vote counters less able to rig the vote and cease "finding" boxes of absentee ballots or whatever at the last minute with 99% precincts reporting?

Post reply on HN