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Why Do So Many Egyptian Statues Have Broken Noses?

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Re: Why Do So Many Egyptian Statues Have Broken Noses?

#31

Post by peteretep »

reaperducer wrote: post #28
throwaway434234 wrote: post #5

You see this in India at every temple that was raided by Muslims. The logic being that breaking the nose would make the "idol" unfit for worship. There probably are a lot of examples in the North (they are now part of some "secular" Mosque complex), but it's very apparent in some of the Hoysala temples that were partially/fully destroyed (esp. Halebidu), and in Vijayanagara. It's really quite sad. Then again, I suppo…

You see this in India at every temple that was raided by Muslims. The logic being that breaking the nose would make the "idol" unfit for worship. I find that interesting because when I was in Turkey it was common to see the ancient depictions of Jesus Christ on church walls with the eyes scratched off. The explanation given by the locals was the same as what you state for the statues in India.

Let's double-down on this and point out that the marauding Burmese desecrated temples of their neighbours -- knocking heads off Buddhas -- and they were of identical religions!

Re: Why Do So Many Egyptian Statues Have Broken Noses?

#32

Post by fwip »

I'm surprised that the article didn't mention another popular theory: that many of the Egyptian statues taken by Europeans had their noses deliberately broken to obscure their blackness.

As the theory goes, in order to make the statues seem like high art, it was necessary to make the culture seem more like the ancient Greeks and Romans. Removing their noses made it so the viewer could more easily read the statues as "like us," rather than the "primitive" countries of black people that Europe was busy exploiting.

Re: Why Do So Many Egyptian Statues Have Broken Noses?

#33

Post by doitLP »

Zelmor wrote: post #27
legohead wrote: post #23

Sounds like a lot of guessing. Apparently nothing is written in stone as to why they did this. The explanation reminds me of english teachers trying to interpret poems. It's also odd they mention removing the left arm has significance, but show pictures of statues with the right arms removed... My guess is it is related to some common speech, like a saying, or a gesture of some sort. Like flicking of the nose is a 'f…

Because religion is the drug of the unwashed masses, and there is a lot of those around everywhere.

Inappropriate and bigoted comment.

Re: Why Do So Many Egyptian Statues Have Broken Noses?

#34

Post by dalbasal »

LeanderK wrote: post #20

> Such a practice seems especially outrageous to modern viewers, considering our appreciation of Egyptian artifacts as masterful works of fine art, but Bleiberg is quick to point out that “ancient Egyptians didn’t have a word for ‘art.’ They would have referred to these objects as ‘equipment.’” When we talk about these artifacts as works of art, he said, we de-contextualize them. this is very interesting and I have n…

We kind of don't have a word for "art" either.

Historically/etymologically, art means "skilled work" or just "stuff made by people" (as in artifact). The word/concept seems to have evolved gradually to its current meaning with all its complex connotations of beauty, metaphorical depth and existing for its own sake.

Even early modern and Renaissance art was probably seen differently to how we see it. A lot of the best statues and paintings had religious purposes, kind of like Egyptians.

Re: Why Do So Many Egyptian Statues Have Broken Noses?

#35

Post by simiones »

circlefavshape wrote: post #16
vrinimi wrote: post #6

A conjecture that I entertain, allowing a bit of validity to Julian Jaynes' "bicameral mind" theory: Egyptians back then could literally hear commands from statues as representations of the gods. Maybe breaking off the noses muted the voices (not sure why noses and not mouths). Warring factions might have wanted to mute opposing gods and install their own.

"Egyptians back then could literally hear commands from statues as representations of the gods" What?

It's an entertaining (though certainly wrong) theory that states that ancient peoples' minds were divided into a "conscious" part that executed commands given by the other part, which it perceived as "gods speaking to it". More (and better) explanations on wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicameralism_(psychology)

Re: Why Do So Many Egyptian Statues Have Broken Noses?

#36

Post by LeanderK »

dalbasal wrote: post #34
LeanderK wrote: post #20

> Such a practice seems especially outrageous to modern viewers, considering our appreciation of Egyptian artifacts as masterful works of fine art, but Bleiberg is quick to point out that “ancient Egyptians didn’t have a word for ‘art.’ They would have referred to these objects as ‘equipment.’” When we talk about these artifacts as works of art, he said, we de-contextualize them. this is very interesting and I have n…

We kind of don't have a word for "art" either. Historically/etymologically, art means "skilled work" or just "stuff made by people" (as in artifact). The word/concept seems to have evolved gradually to its current meaning with all its complex connotations of beauty, metaphorical depth and existing for its own sake. Even early modern and Renaissance art was probably seen differently to how we see it. A lot of the best…

I don't think this is an valid argument. I think that "art", as understood now, is pretty much the word for "art". A language is an evolving thing and the usage defines the meaning. Many words change their meaning and new words emerge.

> Even early modern and Renaissance art was probably seen differently to how we see it. A lot of the best statues and paintings had religious purposes, kind of like Egyptians.

Nearly everything artists in the past produced was commissioned work, the dutch old-masters are no different and I would be suprised if the appreciation for arts emerged out of nowhere, it was (as nearly everything is) a gradual process. I am a bit suprised by my lack of knowledge how art evolved as a concept, so I can't really argue much here.

Re: Why Do So Many Egyptian Statues Have Broken Noses?

#37

Post by 725686 »

EGreg wrote: post #15
vrinimi wrote: post #6

A conjecture that I entertain, allowing a bit of validity to Julian Jaynes' "bicameral mind" theory: Egyptians back then could literally hear commands from statues as representations of the gods. Maybe breaking off the noses muted the voices (not sure why noses and not mouths). Warring factions might have wanted to mute opposing gods and install their own.

Literally hear? Citation needed!

The citation is the very first thing in the comment you responded to: The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind by Julian Jaynes. Haven't read it but heard of it many times. Interesting speculation, but there you have your citation.

Re: Why Do So Many Egyptian Statues Have Broken Noses?

#38

Post by bagel_factory »

fwip wrote: post #32

I'm surprised that the article didn't mention another popular theory: that many of the Egyptian statues taken by Europeans had their noses deliberately broken to obscure their blackness. As the theory goes, in order to make the statues seem like high art, it was necessary to make the culture seem more like the ancient Greeks and Romans. Removing their noses made it so the viewer could more easily read the statues as…

We wuz kangz

Re: Why Do So Many Egyptian Statues Have Broken Noses?

#39

Post by temporalparts »

peteretep wrote: post #31
reaperducer wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You see this in India at every temple that was raided by Muslims. The logic being that breaking the nose would make the "idol" unfit for worship. I find that interesting because when I was in Turkey it was common to see the ancient depictions of Jesus Christ on church walls with the eyes scratched off. The explanation given by the locals was the same as what you state for the statues in India.

Let's double-down on this and point out that the marauding Burmese desecrated temples of their neighbours -- knocking heads off Buddhas -- and they were of identical religions!

When Angkor Wat was being raided by art thieves operating out of Thailand, they knocked off heads off of buddha not to be disrepsectful per se, but because they wanted to loot and sell those heads on the black market. [1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angkor_Wat#History

Re: Why Do So Many Egyptian Statues Have Broken Noses?

#40

Post by NelsonMinar »

The computer geniuses here at Hacker News have decided the main argument of this article are wrong. But among archaeologists ritual defacement is understood to be a regular thing that happens to art all over the world.

Roman coins defaced: https://www.coinsweekly.com/en/Defacing-the-past-damnation-a...

Teotihuacan icons demolished and destroyed by fire: https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2017/sep/24/teotihu...

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