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Cookie Warning Shenanigans Have Got to Stop

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Re: Cookie Warning Shenanigans Have Got to Stop

#381

Post by oliv__ »

josephg wrote: post #368
cortesoft wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are tons of websites that have other revenue models. Subscriptions, referral models, etc. Shouldn't people be able to choose what currency they want to pay for something in?

> Shouldn't people be able to choose what currency they want to pay for something in? Thats a very libertarian position statement and I understand it. But the EU is much less capitalist/libertarian than you are. Their parliament made the call that they don't want people paying for services with their personal data. There's valid arguments on both sides here. Some arguments supporting the EU's stance: - If online news…

How is it a fundamental right?

Re: Cookie Warning Shenanigans Have Got to Stop

#382

Post by sonnyblarney »

tuco86 wrote: post #267
sonnyblarney wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It's hilarious how everyone has just forgotten that used to be a thing" Ads were always a thing, they're just going to be better targeted with more info. There is no free lunch, so what this means is the 'no cookie' users may be exposed to more ads. I understand the market dynamics are not working very well, but we have to remember that information provided is not free either.

you will get as many ads as the typical user is able to bare no matter what.

The underlying economics are unavoidable.

Companies are not trying to 'do inherent evil' - they just want to show relevant ads. And by the way, consumers definitely appreciate the relevance.

There is another side to the equation, and there are economic consequences to all of this that will come home to root.

Personally, I loathe Facebook and don't use it for personal reasons, but I have a small business and it's the only advertising mechanism that works for us: we have a neat little product for a niche category.

There are entire economies that can only exist with the ability to effectively get the word out, there is tremendous social good in this.

We just have to figure out a way to do it that fits within reasonable privacy guidelines.

Re: Cookie Warning Shenanigans Have Got to Stop

#383

Post by TheCoelacanth »

jrochkind1 wrote: post #268
mort96 wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most discussion about the EU cookie directive doesn't mention it, but not all cookies require consent. From https://privacypolicies.com/blog/eu-cookie-law/#some-cookies... : "This shall not prevent any technical storage or access for the sole purpose of carrying out the transmission of a communication over an electronic communications network, or as strictly necessary in order for the provider of an information socie…

" in order for the provider of an information society service explicitly requested by the subscriber or user to provide the service." If I need to get explicit opt-in for "So, remembering your shopping cart when you come back requires cookies, that okay with you?" I'm not sure how much better that would be. It's still gonna be information overload "false positives". But I think that is what the regulations actually i…

> If I need to get explicit opt-in for "So, remembering your shopping cart when you come back requires cookies, that okay with you?"

You don't provided you have a reasonably short retention period, are not storing personal information that is not directly needed for remembering the shopping cart and are only using it for that and not simply using that as a justification for something else.

> Nobody cares whether or not you use cookies to implement a shopping cart.

Nor do the regulations. You have to meet the exactly the same requirements to store personal information using some other mechanism that you do using cookies.

Re: Cookie Warning Shenanigans Have Got to Stop

#384

Post by TheCoelacanth »

UncleEntity wrote: post #343
wsy wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are now in the middle game of GDPR. Companies whose business model depends on tracking users essentially have now an illegal business model, because practically no user will give informed consent when they are offered the same service without consenting. So what can these - now shady - companies do? They probe the limits of the law, and try to keep their business model alive as long as they can. We need to wait an…

> Then EU will essentially become free of tracking networks. It might take a few years, but I think the intermediate annoyance is worth it. I don't disagree with you but I think it is more likely that these companies will just not let EU peoples use their sites at all. One BIG fine (and you know they're salivating at the prospect of getting multi-billions out of Google and/or FB) and doing business in the EU becomes…

I hope they do pull out of the EU. That would be one of the biggest business opportunities in history for privacy-respecting companies to fill the void that was left.

Re: Cookie Warning Shenanigans Have Got to Stop

#385

Post by TheCoelacanth »

paulcole wrote: post #224
DavideNL wrote: post #128

In The Netherlands the Data Protection Authority announced this month that websites are no longer allowed to block access when people click "NO" in the cookie warning; Clicking 'no' should still allow people to view the website, but without placing any tracking cookies. Source (in Dutch): https://autoriteitpersoonsgegevens.nl/nl/nieuws/websites-moe...

> Clicking 'no' should still allow people to view the website, but without placing any tracking cookies. No! It doesn't. Viewing a website isn't anyone's god-given right. The tracking cookies are part of the business model. If you don't agree with how a business makes money, stop patronizing them. If this is serious, look for companies to just block all traffic from The Netherlands. Why even bother dealing with the h…

Siphoning up people's data isn't anyone's god-given right. If you don't like EU laws, then don't do business there.

Re: Cookie Warning Shenanigans Have Got to Stop

#386

Post by everyone »

I'm in the EU. I just dont bother looking at those sites anymore.. So, a lot of the links posted here for example.

ps. If I ever mention that the article had a ridiculous cookie warning system that I didnt bother getting through (eg. The techcrunch gif in the article), or that the site is just plain broken from EU, then I get downvoted to hell.

pps. If I really wanna read something, or need to for work or whatever then I use outline.com

Re: Cookie Warning Shenanigans Have Got to Stop

#387

Post by Mirioron »

ucarion wrote: post #91
fixermark wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone who didn't see this as the predictable end-result of requiring cookie awareness and consent was hopelessly naive about how large vs. small organizations respond to unfunded government mandates. The money and time could have been a lot better spent on international awareness campaigns arming consumers with more privacy knowledge instead of expecting website owners to shoulder the informational burden (because t…

These organizations do have such an incentive. The very essence of GDPR is to create these incentives. The EU's goal with GDPR was to make user data a liability , and to encourage organizations to reconsider their need to hoover and hoard it. The GDPR is unlikely to be overturned, and there are plenty in the EU who are eager to enforce it. Just because it's not being enforced right this second doesn't mean the law wo…

>The EU's goal with GDPR was to make user data a liability, and to encourage organizations to reconsider their need to hoover and hoard it.

And as a consequence we're going to continue sinking into irrelevance.

>The GDPR is unlikely to be overturned, and there are plenty in the EU who are eager to enforce it.

I think it will be overturned a couple of decades from now, when an economic crisis hits and we find that we've fallen significantly behind other countries due to our fear of technology.

Re: Cookie Warning Shenanigans Have Got to Stop

#388

Post by Mirioron »

wsy wrote: post #313
nihonde wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve been hearing this since 1997 when the first Data Protection directive happened. The enforcement never happens unless it’s serving a political goal, such as singling out a Chinese company or whatever.

GDPR is the result of many lessons learned in prior attempts. The EU Commission put particular attention on not repeating the mistakes being made in the Cookies directive, which rendered it essentially useless and only annoying. Fines are to be handed out by the national data protection agencies. In Germany, the data protection agency regularly goes after violators since the 1990s. They audit German administrations a…

Too bad that the EU has yet to learn what collateral damage is.

Re: Cookie Warning Shenanigans Have Got to Stop

#389

Post by Mirioron »

tgsovlerkhgsel wrote: post #324
School-Cotton wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trading a kidney for access to a news site would obviously be insane, and we should have laws to prevent insane people from harming themselves. On the other hand, if a person of sound mind decided they would rather have $1,000,000 than both of their kidneys, why shouldn't they be able to sell one, logically? The idea of selling one's organs sets off the human involuntary disgust/outrage reaction ("of COURSE it should…

The news site was an obviously over-the-top example, but the more realistic $1,000,000 offer would be just as illegal. The rational reason for that is that in the real world, not all choices are made by perfectly rational, superhumanely intelligent actors that have and consider all the information. Also, not all decisions on a free market are truly freely made. If all standard housing/mortgage contracts contain that…

>With data on web sites, it's the same. Almost every web site collects data. You don't realistically have the option of going to a different news site if you don't like that deal.

You have plenty of choice: make your own, feed them wrong information, feed them no information or find a site that doesn't. If enough people care about this niche then your website would succeed.

Re: Cookie Warning Shenanigans Have Got to Stop

#390

Post by Mirioron »

flukus wrote: post #354
currysausage wrote: post #21

The omnipresent "Please accept our privacy policy (or leave)" is worthless cargo cult GDPR pseudo-compliance. If it's neither freely given nor informed, it's not consent under GDPR. See Art. 7: "When assessing whether consent is freely given, utmost account shall be taken of whether, inter alia, the performance of a contract, including the provision of a service, is conditional on consent to the processing of persona…

There is also this in article Article 7.4 ( https://gdpr-info.eu/art-7-gdpr/ ) > 4 It shall be as easy to withdraw as to give consent. If you prompt me to accept on every page then you must also prompt me to decline on every page, otherwise you fail this test. Hiding the option to withdraw consent in some random settings page is obviously not as easy as clicking yes when prompted. Most sites have already created all…

So you want more pop ups? Because I'm sure they're willing to oblige.
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