Dwarf Fortress is coming to Steam with graphics • Hacker News Board

Re: Dwarf Fortress is coming to Steam with graphics

#171

Post by FPGAhacker » Wed, Mar 13, 2019, 10:07 PM UTC

Macuyiko wrote: post #155

gotocake wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every friend I’ve turned onto either game was basically lost for months, then returned to the world like a shipwrecked survivor. It was all long beards and uncut hair, wild eyes and impossible tales. These games are so good they should come with rehab.

I wish these games would still have that effect on me. I mean, I can totally see it happening back when I was 20-25 years old. When I try to start factorio, df, rimworld today, I can see the systems, I can feel the ocd style appeal and feedback loops grabbing me, until I realize after one hour that 1) this is just the same as work, 2) someone else has already optimized the crap out of this, better then I'd ever have…

I consider this to be healthy. There are real world problems to spend your time on.

The real world has achievements to be earned and systems to be optimized. Why not seek those out and end up with something to show for your effort?

Nobody is going to lie on their deathbed wishing they had played more factorio.

Re: Dwarf Fortress is coming to Steam with graphics

#172

Post by Eruvarn » Wed, Mar 13, 2019, 10:09 PM UTC

tom_ wrote: post #54

umvi wrote: post #35

One thing that amazes me about Dwarf Fortress is that the creator(s) don't use version control[1] (as of 2014, things may have changed): "I don't use version control -- I didn't like the feeling of having the code get committed into a black box thingy with no immediate upside." I can't fathom how you can manage the complexity of a game like DF without a VCS. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1avszc/im_tarn_a…

They take backups, name each folder based on the date, and what feature that was just completed (or just about to be started) that prompted the backup. I bet you a pound. This is what everybody that says they don't use version control does.

But if you're going to go through all that work... isn't it easier to just use Git, or some other VC?

Re: Dwarf Fortress is coming to Steam with graphics

#173

Post by MrFoof » Wed, Mar 13, 2019, 10:10 PM UTC

aresant wrote: post #9

Three points of interest: 1) Full developer announcement on their Patreon page -> https://www.patreon.com/posts/25343688 2) They are putting on steam largely because of the USA's shit healthcare system "after Zach's latest cancer scare, we determined that with my healthcare plan's copay etc., I'd be wiped out if I had to undergo the same procedures . . " 3) Cool to see that they are going to use graphics built by two…

I'm one of the longer time Dwarf Fortress supporters, with somewhere around $2500 donated over the past decade or so via PayPal. If I remember correctly, it was around January 2007 when Tarn started accepting donations.

I don't play it much, only a week every year or so to see what's new, get lost in the wacky reality of it all, and put it down to tend to other things. I read the communities from time to time. The wacky stories. Occasionally watch someone have a go on Twitch and enjoy seeing everything unfold.

Dwarf Fortress is an unsung touchstone of internet culture. Game devs in AAA studios (I know a few) talk of it in hushed whispers -- most are aware of it, even if only a few of them have played it. In fact, Dwarf Fortress is what sparked Markus Persson to create Minecraft, which was originally intended to be a voxel version of Dwarf Fortress itself.

I regret the circumstances that have resulted in Tarn and Zach having to find ways to bring in more income. They moved onto Patreon in the past year or so, and thankfully it was a meaningful increase in income. Hopefully Steam can help in that regard, as Tarn seems to manage his time and communication with the community quite well, and at least the Bay 12 forums by and large respects that he takes the time to reach out before continuing with the game as he sees fit.

It's something very novel and lovingly crafted that creates real joy and sparks the imagination in ways most people will rarely see. Although a bit obtuse upfront, it is one of the most novel toys mankind has ever created. Hopefully this can ensure that its development can continue for much longer still, and help other people discover the magic that it is.

Re: Dwarf Fortress is coming to Steam with graphics

#174

Post by roenxi » Wed, Mar 13, 2019, 10:11 PM UTC

Pfhreak wrote: post #50

I've often wondered if DF will ever get an open source version that tries to recreate the same experience but focuses on consistent interface design, performance and multithreading, and ease of extensibility. DF has a huge head start, and two of the most incredibly passionate developers out there, but it's also clear they prioritize expanding the model first and foremost rather than trying to tackle any of the user e…

Hopefully when the developers are eventually incapacitated they've made provisions for the source code to be released. I know I stopped playing because occasionally there were bugs were so bad that the fortress had to be abandoned; and there is substantial evidence in the bug count and framerate that there are underlying architectural issues in their design.

An open source version would be technically superior; although how that would affect their income stream I do not know.

Re: Dwarf Fortress is coming to Steam with graphics

#175

Post by clucas » Wed, Mar 13, 2019, 10:12 PM UTC

Macuyiko wrote: post #155

gotocake wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every friend I’ve turned onto either game was basically lost for months, then returned to the world like a shipwrecked survivor. It was all long beards and uncut hair, wild eyes and impossible tales. These games are so good they should come with rehab.

I wish these games would still have that effect on me. I mean, I can totally see it happening back when I was 20-25 years old. When I try to start factorio, df, rimworld today, I can see the systems, I can feel the ocd style appeal and feedback loops grabbing me, until I realize after one hour that 1) this is just the same as work, 2) someone else has already optimized the crap out of this, better then I'd ever have…

I know this feeling - you're climbing up that hill at the very beginning, trying to figure out the mechanics and what the game is about. Then when you finally crest it, you see the whole game set out before you like a beautiful valley... and you realize, "this is going to take hours and days, and I already understand it." You judge the time required vs. the enjoyment that may be gained, and the game loses. And it's sad, because you want the game to win, but you can't just let it.

One game I'll recommend if you're in this boat with me is Slay the Spire - it's a roguelike, so you play run after run from the beginning, instead of working from the same save like Factorio. The mechanics vary from run to run, sometimes significantly, because the cards and relics you collect along the way can completely change how the game plays. I've been enjoying it for a few months now, and while I sometimes put it away for a week or two at a time, I'm still coming back to it. I think part of it is I'm playing to figure out how to survive a run, not to figure out how the game works.

Anyway, check it out - definitely worth $25, and it may give you that long-term enjoyment you're looking for. Though I think, to paraphrase Stand By Me, "I don't have any games like I did when I was 10. Jesus, does anybody?"

Re: Dwarf Fortress is coming to Steam with graphics

#176

Post by monocasa » Wed, Mar 13, 2019, 10:17 PM UTC

stcredzero wrote: post #148

ncallaway wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For one thing, why are you so insistent that I'm an opponent of health care reform I think the assumptions others may have made because you've largely described what you don't want. Do you have suggestions or thoughts for what an effective system is? What is the system that you do want?

I'd like for people on both sides of the aisle to come together and design a system which tries to prioritize both dignified almost-total coverage and individual autonomy. Probably not the answer you were looking for, but thanks for asking the question. I think I've clarified to myself how I'm to vote.

Obamacare was both sides of the aisle coming together. It's a repackaged version of the proposed Republican 1993 HEART Act (including the individual mandate).

Re: Dwarf Fortress is coming to Steam with graphics

#177

Post by wallace_f » Wed, Mar 13, 2019, 10:24 PM UTC

FPGAhacker wrote: post #171

Macuyiko wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish these games would still have that effect on me. I mean, I can totally see it happening back when I was 20-25 years old. When I try to start factorio, df, rimworld today, I can see the systems, I can feel the ocd style appeal and feedback loops grabbing me, until I realize after one hour that 1) this is just the same as work, 2) someone else has already optimized the crap out of this, better then I'd ever have…

I consider this to be healthy. There are real world problems to spend your time on. The real world has achievements to be earned and systems to be optimized. Why not seek those out and end up with something to show for your effort? Nobody is going to lie on their deathbed wishing they had played more factorio.

Well to entertain the other side of that argument: the real world is filled with cheating and inopporunity. Why waste your time drudging through a world of bullshit when you can entertain or define your own pursuit of happiness? If that happens to be video games, why wouldn't you wish you did more of that?

Re: Dwarf Fortress is coming to Steam with graphics

#178

Post by roenxi » Wed, Mar 13, 2019, 10:25 PM UTC

crumbshot wrote: post #170

gowld wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taxes are quite clearly an infringement of personal freedom. Government-run healthcare removes (or greatly reduces) the choice of care from the open market and puts it in the government's control. You can't operate or patronize a medical service provider that is insolvent because the government offers a subsidized alternative service. There are tradeoffs, and well spent taxes can open up opportunities otherwise precl…

I don't see how taxes are an infringement of personal freedom, could you elaborate?

It's a slightly roundabout set of links that tends to become very clear to people paying >40% of their income in taxes. First, some setup:

The base case is I think the world needs to change, so I spend 8 hours changing it for the better.

The extended case is other people notice I am making the world better, and want to pitch in. We've got this great indirection system in money to allow that to happen with a highly abstract measure of 'resources' so even if they don't know how to contribute personally they can signal how important my work is to others.

Now, there are respectable schools of thought that believe something like (a) there are people who do not have the capacity to meaningfully contribute resources or (b) initial control of raw resources is more impactful than human endeavor. They employ taxes to change how resources are distributed.

And now, the freedom angle:

Without government tax, if I work for 8 hours I can presumably provide for myself in about 2-3 because modern production is so efficient, and then I get 5 hours to reshape the world into something I want to live in. With government tax, the split is basically 2-3 for me, 2-3 for the government, 3 for changing the world to taste. This is effectively a loss of liberty, because now I have half the control over how the world changes.

That isn't particularly profound, it is just how taxes work. But one of the points of money is abstracting direct work for contributing. In a sense, this is the same as labouring directly on a government project for 2-3 hours, and that would be slavery. Obviously taxes aren't slavery because they aren't mandatory (don't want to pay taxes, don't work) but the parallel is there for reducing liberty.

Re: Dwarf Fortress is coming to Steam with graphics

#179

Post by shanusmagnus » Wed, Mar 13, 2019, 10:28 PM UTC

Macuyiko wrote: post #155

gotocake wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every friend I’ve turned onto either game was basically lost for months, then returned to the world like a shipwrecked survivor. It was all long beards and uncut hair, wild eyes and impossible tales. These games are so good they should come with rehab.

I wish these games would still have that effect on me. I mean, I can totally see it happening back when I was 20-25 years old. When I try to start factorio, df, rimworld today, I can see the systems, I can feel the ocd style appeal and feedback loops grabbing me, until I realize after one hour that 1) this is just the same as work, 2) someone else has already optimized the crap out of this, better then I'd ever have…

Thanks for making the connection to work -- I keep having this same thing, all the time, about many endeavors. "If I'm going to invest all this time learning _x_, why don't I spend the same time learning _a real thing_ that can help with my actual life?"

On the one hand it sounds like I've become a joyless husk (which may be true.) On the other hand, maybe I should play the larger real-life game that has so much better payoffs?

It feels wrong though.

Re: Dwarf Fortress is coming to Steam with graphics

#180

Post by joppy » Wed, Mar 13, 2019, 10:29 PM UTC

gowld wrote: post #160

odorousrex wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does a national health care system (say such as Canada or UK) encroach on personal freedom? (Short of say the obvious...increased taxes for you.) I've found a lot of "opponents" of universal healthcare actually support a safety net for less fortunate people - they just don't want to pay for it. This is a perfectly valid reason, but I wouldn't call it encroaching on personal freedom, so I'm curious as to how else…

Taxes are quite clearly an infringement of personal freedom. Government-run healthcare removes (or greatly reduces) the choice of care from the open market and puts it in the government's control. You can't operate or patronize a medical service provider that is insolvent because the government offers a subsidized alternative service. There are tradeoffs, and well spent taxes can open up opportunities otherwise precl…

Government-run healthcare does not always reduce the choice of care, it can do the opposite! In Australia, many medical services are subsidised by the government, meaning many of them (for example, a visit to a GP) can be free. However, a GP is still free to claim this money from the government, while still charging extra on top of that. The end result is that people who can’t afford health insurance still get health care, while people who can afford to pick and choose quality of care can still do so, and at a reduced cost.

I’m not saying Australia has it right in every way, I’m just saying that universal health care doesn’t need to restrict your choice of care.