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Dwarf Fortress is coming to Steam with graphics

polygon.com

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Re: Dwarf Fortress is coming to Steam with graphics

#161

Post by bduerst »

rjbwork wrote: post #17
joshstrange wrote: post #12

I've never been able to get into DF but I would suggest people check out RimWorld. I've heard it described as "Dwarf Fortress is Rimworld for people who hate fun" [0] and people often draw parallels between the two [1]. [0] https://www.reddit.com/r/RimWorld/comments/7dm7j8/how_does_r... [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/RimWorld/comments/6xeie3/coming_ove...

I love RimWorld, and have hundreds of hours in it, but I'd say it's really more like Babby's First DF game than truly comparable to DF. It just doesn't have the depth, or capability to present a deep challenge forever. It also takes place in a single layer, whereas DF has gobs of layers.

>It just doesn't have the depth

Literally. There's no z-levels, which really kills it for me in a post-apocalyptic sim where you can't dig a defensive moat or put riflemen in towers.

Re: Dwarf Fortress is coming to Steam with graphics

#162

Post by a1369209993 »

jandrese wrote: post #52
shrimp_emoji wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Multithread w h e n ??? Also, early embark setup fatigue is real. Setup the stockpiles. Plan the rooms. Have the plans outpace your current productivity and have it take way too long. Do this every time. Once that's over, though, you get to enjoy sorting through droves of migrants, assigning each to the tasks they're most appropriate to or which need the most dwarves right now (the game actually approximates this aut…

Multithread never. You know in your heart of hearts that DF wasn't built with modularity in mind and that the code is a horrific mess of dependencies everywhere and making it multithreaded would require a near complete rewrite of the system.

Actually, one of DF's biggest CPU-sinks is AI pathfinding, which is a: embarrassingly parallel and b: highly speculatable[0], so the only hard part would be keeping map walkablity data in-sync or read-lockable (depending on whether you want a separate copy or not).

0: ie, you can fire off a pathfind from your current position, keep walking for several steps (many game ticks) before getting the result back, and just do some minor fixups to make it work.

Re: Dwarf Fortress is coming to Steam with graphics

#164

Post by eropple »

Macuyiko wrote: post #155
gotocake wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every friend I’ve turned onto either game was basically lost for months, then returned to the world like a shipwrecked survivor. It was all long beards and uncut hair, wild eyes and impossible tales. These games are so good they should come with rehab.

I wish these games would still have that effect on me. I mean, I can totally see it happening back when I was 20-25 years old. When I try to start factorio, df, rimworld today, I can see the systems, I can feel the ocd style appeal and feedback loops grabbing me, until I realize after one hour that 1) this is just the same as work, 2) someone else has already optimized the crap out of this, better then I'd ever have…

I tend to feel that way about Factorio, but I strongly don't about Dwarf Fortress (or Rimworld). Both of those games are story generators. It's about the things thrown at you and the ways you cope--or don't, which is also fun--with the unexpected while building something you think is cool.

Dwarf Fortress in particular doesn't care about optimization (either of code or of your play). Build what you want. Figure out what you think is cool and do it. There are, literally, no goals other than the ones in your head.

Re: Dwarf Fortress is coming to Steam with graphics

#165

Post by bduerst »

chobeat wrote: post #21
joshstrange wrote: post #12

I've never been able to get into DF but I would suggest people check out RimWorld. I've heard it described as "Dwarf Fortress is Rimworld for people who hate fun" [0] and people often draw parallels between the two [1]. [0] https://www.reddit.com/r/RimWorld/comments/7dm7j8/how_does_r... [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/RimWorld/comments/6xeie3/coming_ove...

Rimworld is kinda lame if you've played DF. They are not even comparable.

Agreed. Fans will dv this, but it's like saying an etch-a-sketch is on the level of photoshop.

Re: Dwarf Fortress is coming to Steam with graphics

#166

Post by Namrog84 »

Macuyiko wrote: post #155
gotocake wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every friend I’ve turned onto either game was basically lost for months, then returned to the world like a shipwrecked survivor. It was all long beards and uncut hair, wild eyes and impossible tales. These games are so good they should come with rehab.

I wish these games would still have that effect on me. I mean, I can totally see it happening back when I was 20-25 years old. When I try to start factorio, df, rimworld today, I can see the systems, I can feel the ocd style appeal and feedback loops grabbing me, until I realize after one hour that 1) this is just the same as work, 2) someone else has already optimized the crap out of this, better then I'd ever have…

I have this same problem. In factorio for example.

Either I use other people's efficient designs that are more optimal and then I feel like I'm just copy pasting and not playing.

Or I end up wanting to write a program or design things that can produce the optimal designs. All of which involve not actually playing the game but playing excel spreadsheet or programming dynamic programming algorithms.

I like games that allow min maxing a lot. But they need to be in such a way that there is more to the game and less copyable stuff. So that I can enjoy and play the game.

Re: Dwarf Fortress is coming to Steam with graphics

#167

Post by bduerst »

crocal wrote: post #53
coldacid wrote: post #10

Oh no. There goes everyone's productivity, killed by catsplosions.

And by killer carps. Never turn your back on carps. They want you dead! Explanation: http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/40d:Carp

They fixed that though. I think the current most problematic bug is that your dwarves can't kill undead heads if they're decapitated from the body. The dwarves just gather around and endless keep beating it the zombie head.

Re: Dwarf Fortress is coming to Steam with graphics

#168

Post by vkou »

jandrese wrote: post #57
soneca wrote: post #40

I always read about Dwarf Fortress in HN and it always interested me. But some elements, like the ASCII art, always seemed to me as entry barriers purposefully built to maintain a protected subculture that I had no interest in being part of. I just wanted to try out a good game. So this comes as good news to me, I'll probably give it a try now with the tile graphics.

IMHO, the graphics aren't nearly as much of a barrier as the interface. If you just install DF and open it up you will be overwhelmed and there's no help system holding your hand. The word "inscrutable" gets tossed around a lot with Dwarf Fortress, because it is the prefect encapsulation of the first time player's experience.

I strongly agree. Even if Dwarf Fortress had the graphics of Rimworld (Which are aesthetically pleasing and visually distinct), its user-interface (The military system, the equipment system, any construction-related interaction with Z-levels, the fifty million jobs that dwarves can have) is insane.

Re: Dwarf Fortress is coming to Steam with graphics

#169

Post by vkou »

mlindner wrote: post #112
bdz wrote: post #78

The problem with DF was never the graphics but the UI itself. See Rimworld which is hugely popular but much more "playable". Basically the UI is holding back the game to become a much bigger success

Rimworld is also a MUCH simpler game. It's simpler to the point when I played it Rimworld felt "dead" as compared to how "alive" the DF simulation felt.

Rimworld is a much simpler game, but it would not be improved if, instead of the incredibly straight, user-friendly forward military system that it has, it had the insane morass of uniforms, schedules, equipment menus, burrows, that Dwarf Fortress does. It's an incredibly roundabout system that has too much complexity in the UI, for too little complexity in gameplay.

You could add features to Rimworld, to reach feature parity with Dwarf Fortress, and it's easy-to-use UI would still hold up.

Re: Dwarf Fortress is coming to Steam with graphics

#170

Post by crumbshot »

gowld wrote: post #160
odorousrex wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does a national health care system (say such as Canada or UK) encroach on personal freedom? (Short of say the obvious...increased taxes for you.) I've found a lot of "opponents" of universal healthcare actually support a safety net for less fortunate people - they just don't want to pay for it. This is a perfectly valid reason, but I wouldn't call it encroaching on personal freedom, so I'm curious as to how else…

Taxes are quite clearly an infringement of personal freedom. Government-run healthcare removes (or greatly reduces) the choice of care from the open market and puts it in the government's control. You can't operate or patronize a medical service provider that is insolvent because the government offers a subsidized alternative service. There are tradeoffs, and well spent taxes can open up opportunities otherwise precl…

I don't see how taxes are an infringement of personal freedom, could you elaborate?
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