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Canada grounds Boeing 737 Max 8

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Re: Canada grounds Boeing 737 Max 8

#261

Post by yingw787 »

TearsInTheRain wrote: post #241
yingw787 wrote: post #157

And then there was one. I do wonder if we can halt and revert the deterioration of the Civil Service before the whole "civilization is two days worth of food and water" scenario arrives. If it does, I think it'll be through something that generates a disproportionate amount of fear and anxiety in people resulting in a significant impact to the economy in a sector where middle to upper class folks are heavily exposed…

> So if you're concerned because Boeing's CEO is a Mar-A-Lago member with direct access to POTUS (who wants his club fees), and the Secretary of Transportation is the Senate Majority Leader's wife who is also lobbied by Boeing, and the FAA hasn't had an official administrator for two months, and the FAA can't approve safety fixes by Boeing due to government shutdowns, and aircraft manufacturing consolidation means Bo…

I think that's true to a point, but we are way past that point. We're at the point where when the government works with the private sector, a worse result is created than if the government had created it alone, or if the private sector had created it alone, where you could form a total ordering. There is no recognizable gestalt, and whole point of public/private cooperation is to generate those gestalts.

Another way I look at this is, "what needs to be true for this situation to be the best possible situation for the parties involved? How does this make sense?". When I look at it this way, the FAA not grounding this plane doesn't make sense if you follow a path benefiting the general public, barring some extenuating private knowledge. It seems to be a long path of short-term optimizations.

Re: Canada grounds Boeing 737 Max 8

#262

Post by adventist »

js2 wrote: post #20

Having read many commments on HN and elsewhere since the crash, I know I’m in the minority here when I say this but to me it seems like the US airlines and FAA are following their procedures, the same procedures that make the US airlines the safest in the world, while the rest of the world is, I don’t quite want to use the word panicking, but at least giving into pressure from people who aren’t aviation safety expert…

Trump gave into the pressure: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/13/business/canada-737-max.h...

Re: Canada grounds Boeing 737 Max 8

#265

Post by cmurf »

Trump says U.S. and Canada are simultaneously grounding 737 MAX 8 and MAX 9 aircraft, and have been coordinating it. I'm biased so I read that as Canada did it first and dragged the U.S. into it. Nevertheless, these planes are grounded once they reach their destinations today. And boy does this hurt Southwest the most of U.S. carriers.

Re: Canada grounds Boeing 737 Max 8

#266

Post by ams6110 »

linuxftw wrote: post #238
Scoundreller wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the risk of grounding planes is operational inconvenience I disagree. The EU grounded planes returned to their starting point, and will have to fly yet another leg: a double dose of flight risk. How will airlines fill the gap from their MAX8 fleet? By dusting off their parked planes. Why are they parked? They could be lemons or reduced safety (e.g. Minimim Equipment Lists). Or by deferring maintenance, which is don…

> How will airlines fill the gap from their MAX8 fleet? Europe will probably be fine. Unfortunately here in the states, the Airlines colluded with "capacity discipline" [1]. If you've been on a US flight recently, you'll notice that a whole plane canceled would require another entire plane to be found. And since airlines don't seem to invest too much into their workforce, well they just don't have the extra captains…

American passengers, assisted by SV technology, have been encouraged to be and demonstrated that they are totally indifferent to anything but price and will book with whichever carrier is least expensive. So don't complain that in order to stay in business, airlines are cutting costs to the bone and not carrying extra capacity anywhere that it's not essential.

Re: Canada grounds Boeing 737 Max 8

#267

Post by weaksauce »

Someone1234 wrote: post #188
js2 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least according to Southwest’s pilots union SWA has seen no MCAS issues in its fleet (edit: this may not be correct - see reply from antsar) and its pilots are prepared to handle any MCAS issue were it to occur.[1] I think a worse scenario is if the Ethiopian flight crashed due to some other not yet known issue specific to the Max. [1] https://swaparesources.s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/assets/pdf...

Southwest is also a unique case, as they had their Max 8s fitted with a sensor and warning to indicate problems with the AOA sensor that it implicated with MCAS. So Southwest's position is rational, but doesn't scale well to other airlines using the standard Max 8.

It’s kinda absurd that a single sensor malfunction can lead to an accident like the lion air one. It’s also kinda absurd that critical sensor failure monitoring be sold as an up-sale.

Re: Canada grounds Boeing 737 Max 8

#268

Post by anigbrowl »

helaoban wrote: post #236
mzs wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

at least quote it all please, "When a major accident like this happened, global aviation authorities conferred with the FAA -- which took the lead."

Because that part of the quote it not only pointless, it's nonsensical. The FAA DID take the lead by immediately issuing a notice in support of the airworthiness of the plane. Other aviation authorities then decided to contravene the FAA and ground the planes in their own airspace. There is an irrational assumption that has been injected into this argument, which is that all of a sudden the FAA's judgment should be s…

immediately issuing a notice in support of the airworthiness of the plane

But the FAA has no idea right now what caused the crash. So this notice is nothing more than reminding everyone that it was previously determined to be OK. Nobody thought the 737-8s were flying around without an airworthiness certificate, so no new information is on the table.

If you run up to me and say 'Bad Thing just happened, what do' and I respond by saying 'I have previously determined that Bad Things are very unlikely' would you say I am being responsive to the problem?

Re: Canada grounds Boeing 737 Max 8

#269

Post by Tomte »

helaoban wrote: post #245
danepowell wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand and agree that we don't want knee-jerk reactions on the part of regulators. I'm only an aviation enthusiast and by no means an expert, and fully admit that I could be wrong, and even with my natural inclination to reserve judgement, to me it seems obvious that grounding is warranted purely from a statistic viewpoint. Compare the release of the 737 MAX 8 with the release of other recent-ish models like th…

By this argument, all Boeing 777s should have been grounded after the loss of Malaysia 370 and Malaysia 17. Same plane, both incidents within 5 months of each other.

That's a deceptive argument. We know the reason why Malaysia 17 was lost. So we positively know that there is no reason to ground them.

Re: Canada grounds Boeing 737 Max 8

#270

Post by WalterBright »

yingw787 wrote: post #261
TearsInTheRain wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So if you're concerned because Boeing's CEO is a Mar-A-Lago member with direct access to POTUS (who wants his club fees), and the Secretary of Transportation is the Senate Majority Leader's wife who is also lobbied by Boeing, and the FAA hasn't had an official administrator for two months, and the FAA can't approve safety fixes by Boeing due to government shutdowns, and aircraft manufacturing consolidation means Bo…

I think that's true to a point, but we are way past that point. We're at the point where when the government works with the private sector, a worse result is created than if the government had created it alone, or if the private sector had created it alone, where you could form a total ordering. There is no recognizable gestalt, and whole point of public/private cooperation is to generate those gestalts. Another way…

A fundamental problem with regulation of an industry is one needs to have experts in the industry create and enforce the regulations. But how does one become such an expert? By working in the industry.

The alternative is having incompetents doing the regulation and enforcement.

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