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Canada grounds Boeing 737 Max 8

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Re: Canada grounds Boeing 737 Max 8

#91

Post by peteradio »

throwaway427 wrote: post #49
js2 wrote: post #20

Having read many commments on HN and elsewhere since the crash, I know I’m in the minority here when I say this but to me it seems like the US airlines and FAA are following their procedures, the same procedures that make the US airlines the safest in the world, while the rest of the world is, I don’t quite want to use the word panicking, but at least giving into pressure from people who aren’t aviation safety expert…

I agree and I don't think you deserve the downvotes. The FAA is an institution with a deep sense of safety first and independence from (and even dominion over) private industry. They are also a body of experts, with more collective knowledge than any other similar body of domain experts in world. If we believe in institutions of experts who study and make recommendations regarding complex systems, we owe it to the FA…

Regulatory capture happens. Top level leadership starts overruling career professionals and then that dominion gets reversed. Not saying that's what has happened hear but boy did Boeing pull one over on the Faa with this planes release. And Faa leadership has incentive to hold the line. Faa fucked this up long ago.

Re: Canada grounds Boeing 737 Max 8

#92

Post by [deleted] »

jsharf wrote: post #17
whatshisface wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I find it worrying that it took them so long to come to the obvious conclusion Aviation regulators and internet forums are literally at the opposite end of the spectrum with regards to jumping to conclusions.

Frankly, it hasn't even been a week. Thousands of flights happen every day, and these two accidents were 5 months apart. If it takes 2 weeks to make the decision, that actually sounds quite rushed. In the meantime every pilot on the planet is probably paying attention so they know what to do if they find themselves in the same situation, so likely the risk has already gone down slightly. I think that waiting 2 weeks…

[deleted]

Re: Canada grounds Boeing 737 Max 8

#93

Post by tinyhouse »

The right thing is to ground the plane. It's just one plane out of many. It doesn't matter if nothing is wrong with the plane. Until they have clear answers it's better to not take any risks with people's lives!. At this point it's even better for Boeing from every perspective. The plane cannot leave the US and most of US passengers avoid flying it anyway. I'm sure airline crews are also very unhappy that they need to fly it. I wouldn't be surprised if some US airlines would ground it if the FAA doesn't.

Re: Canada grounds Boeing 737 Max 8

#94

Post by hylaride »

ww520 wrote: post #47
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #22

Let’s say these planes should have never been certified. What’s the financial damage to Boeing?

737 Max is their biggest order backlog. However, there's a lack of competition to Boeing (Airbus bowed out) so its stock has gone up and up. Not sure what will happen if 737 Max is sent back to the drawing board.

Lack of competition? The A320neo (which has 6,501 orders) is what caused Boeing to update the 737 into the 737 Max. Boeing wanted to build a whole new plane which would have taken years, but Airbus released the neo and would have gobbled up orders now. What are you thinking Airbus bowed out of?

Re: Canada grounds Boeing 737 Max 8

#95

Post by mikeash »

js2 wrote: post #78
dokein wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The level of certainty required for an action changes depending on the downside risk of action vs inaction. For example, if I am 20% certain that you have a pulmonary embolism, the correct action is to start treatment immediately; the risks of treatment are low relative the harm of waiting for further testing. The FAA and NTSB are rightly very conservative and cautious with respect to approving new designs, since the…

> the risk of grounding planes is operational inconvenience Is it possible there is a safety risk to grounding the 737 Max that outweighs the risk of allowing it to fly?

Yes, if the alternative is even less safe. This is important when the alternative might be driving, as driving is orders of magnitude more dangerous. Safety measures that annoy people too much can end up with a net loss of life because of this.

If there are other airliners that can be put into service to take up the slack, though, they’re very unlikely to be more dangerous.

Re: Canada grounds Boeing 737 Max 8

#96

Post by DumbUser123 »

From a November 29, 2018 story - Southwest airlines were activating a factory-installed option on delivered aircraft to "guard against any erroneous sensor data that may activate the jet's controversial stall protection system..."

https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-safety/southwest-airlines...

The article notes that the airline has opted for an upgraded avionics suite that low-cost airlines have, for the most part, forgone.

Re: Canada grounds Boeing 737 Max 8

#97

Post by rfugger »

whatshisface wrote: post #5
rfugger wrote: post #3

They claim this is based on new "validated" satellite tracking data they received this morning showing similar altitude fluctuations to the Lion Air crash. Somehow every internet forum had this figured out within hours of the crash using public flight tracker data. I find it worrying that it took them so long to come to the obvious conclusion for lack of "validation" of widely known information, and that it took so l…

> I find it worrying that it took them so long to come to the obvious conclusion Aviation regulators and internet forums are literally at the opposite end of the spectrum with regards to jumping to conclusions.

The conclusion in this case is, "two of the same type of plane crashed under similar circumstances so until we know more, no one should fly this plane." I have no problem with a regulator jumping to that "conclusion" until they are absolutely certain the plane is safe.

What bothers me is that yesterday, Garneau was basically saying, "until we're sure the plane is unsafe, we're going to keep flying it." That's backwards.

Re: Canada grounds Boeing 737 Max 8

#98

Post by wyldfire »

mc32 wrote: post #13

Thd FAA + NTSB need to do something. They need to investigate and review past investigations and come out with their findings, they can’t just say “we don’t believe it”. Even if they are right, the right thing to do is thoroughly review past incidents and issue a finding.

I have no idea whether the correct default position should be to ground or not to ground these planes.

But it's clear that the investigation is in-progress and their statement was not "we don't believe it" but "Thus far, our review ... provides no basis to order grounding the aircraft ... Nor have other civil aviation authorities provided data to us that would warrant action."

> Even if they are right, the right thing to do is thoroughly review past incidents and issue a finding.

Isn't that precisely what they're doing now? Also from the FAA's statement: "... if any issues affecting the continued airworthiness of the aircraft are identified, the FAA will take immediate and appropriate action."

Re: Canada grounds Boeing 737 Max 8

#99

Post by joezydeco »

Someone1234 wrote: post #36
whatshisface wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I find it worrying that it took them so long to come to the obvious conclusion Aviation regulators and internet forums are literally at the opposite end of the spectrum with regards to jumping to conclusions.

That's a truism. You're kind of ignoring their point though, which was that the data existed and was readily available. Internet forums may be "jumping to conclusion" but regulators have had this data for days, and didn't act on it. They only acted after regulators in Europe and elsewhere acted first.

The "data" being ADS-B information gathered by amateurs over homemade receivers?

If I was a regulator I'd want a verified and traceable data source as well.

Re: Canada grounds Boeing 737 Max 8

#100

Post by notJim »

Is it normal for there to be this kind of obsession about a particular plane following a crash? I feel like I've never seen this before. I literally saw someone on Twitter suggesting that you print out a page of the manual and hand it to your pilot…
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