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US refuses to ground Boeing 737 Max

bbc.com

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Re: US refuses to ground Boeing 737 Max

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I curse America everytime this inconveniences me, damn globalization of your silly rules..

You are not remembering correctly. TSA doesn't care what kind of water it is, you take 100ml or less with you. Also I'm not quite sure, you know what the word 'machine' means.

Nice edit to the original comment btw. Makes me look like a dumbass.

Re: US refuses to ground Boeing 737 Max

#142
post #140

How improbable was two Malaysian Airlines Boeing 777-200ER flights crashing within five months? Should all Boeing 777-200ER airplanes be grounded? Or all Malaysian Airlines flights? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_370 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17 By the way it took years to figure out how exactly these crashed.

-Quite different scenario. One was shot down by a Russian-made surface-to-air missile (And one can hardly fault Boeing for not providing ECM equipment as standard!), the other was (probably) wilfully flown into the great void.

Here, on the other hand, there are two eerily similar cases where the likely -mind, likely- common denominator is a new 'feature' which has been undercommunicated to the pilots flying the things.

Re: US refuses to ground Boeing 737 Max

#143
As someone who flew a Boeing plane for a long time, if it’s true they released a stick pusher (automatic trim) that would dump the nose,[1] couldn’t be overridden by pulling back on the stick as in previous versions of the aircraft,[2] but only by disconnecting the automatic trim then manually trimming the aircraft, was tied to only one AOA sensor, and then felt this was too much information for “pilots”.[3] Wow. Seems like engineers on the ground and business leaders making decisions that ended up costing lives. Pilot error seems like a scapegoat here. Even a well trained pilot on a bad day might not handle a nose down situation after takeoff well, especially when the intuitive solution of pulling back on the stick had been disabled.

While this may not be the cause of the most recent crash, the Lion crash alone seems to indicate a problem with Boeing and the FAA’s relationship. This probably extends to Airbus and other regulators as indicated in another comment about his or her carriers safety incidents tripling due to flying two aircraft of the same “type” but not really.[4] At a minimum the MCAS changes should have been communicated to pilots and indicates a process problem at Boeing with insufficient pilot involvement and too much engineering and business input. And the FAA probably needs to be much stricter in the training and documentation requirements between models.

[1] https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/u-s-p...

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19077371

[3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18438607

[4] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19376565

Re: US refuses to ground Boeing 737 Max

#144
post #140

How improbable was two Malaysian Airlines Boeing 777-200ER flights crashing within five months? Should all Boeing 777-200ER airplanes be grounded? Or all Malaysian Airlines flights? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_370 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17 By the way it took years to figure out how exactly these crashed.

That reasoning logic is the kind of strawman that we can expect from frequentists :)

Both crashes have been explained and it's bleeding obvious that they do not relate to the plane in itself.

Re: US refuses to ground Boeing 737 Max

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good grief, when was the last time Airbus grounded anything?

When was the last time that two brand new Airbus planes of the same new model crashed in similar ways?

I don't know whether this is "the last time", but perhaps others might find this example informative.

The A320 first crashed on literally its first passenger flight "(in service for two days)". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_296

Later, an A320 crashed less than two months after delivery. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Airlines_Flight_605

These two crashes, as well as a third flight later, Wikipedia describes as "a series of crashes caused, at least in part, by what was believed to be pilots' unfamiliarity with the sophisticated computer system of the Airbus A320". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Inter_Flight_148

Different sources disagree on the causes of these flights. Most indicate "pilot error", but the pilots themselves and other organizations dispute these reports and instead claim design flaws with the aircraft. In general, most discussions of the accidents focus on the new fly-by-wire system.

Re: US refuses to ground Boeing 737 Max

#146
post #99

Lots of jumping to conclusions going on in this thread, blaming the FAA, lobbyists, and politicians for being in the pocket of Boeing. Nobody knows why this plane crashed. The flight recorders have just been recovered and so far there has been nothing in the news about what was on them. The plane might be to blame. The airline or the pilots might be to blame, and by the way, that airline has a bad safety record. It m…

Nobody knows why this plane crashed. The flight recorders have just been recovered and so far there has been nothing in the news about what was on them. Yes. And the recorders have angle of attack data. We'll know within days if it's another AOA sensor problem. Southwest, the biggest US operator of 737 MAX aircraft, bought the "AOA Disagree" option on their aircraft, and recently added an AOA indicator. Many operator…

> Southwest, the biggest US operator of 737 MAX aircraft, bought the "AOA Disagree" option on their aircraft...If you have that, you get a warning that the flight control system is seeing bogus AOA data

How can something that important be an option?

Re: US refuses to ground Boeing 737 Max

#147
post #140

How improbable was two Malaysian Airlines Boeing 777-200ER flights crashing within five months? Should all Boeing 777-200ER airplanes be grounded? Or all Malaysian Airlines flights? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_370 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17 By the way it took years to figure out how exactly these crashed.

That reasoning logic is the kind of strawman that we can expect from frequentists :) Both crashes have been explained and it's bleeding obvious that they do not relate to the plane in itself.

Have they been expained within days of the crash? Last I heard the exact circumstances of 370's crash is still unknown. 17 took several years for the official report to come out.

Re: US refuses to ground Boeing 737 Max

#150
post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That reasoning logic is the kind of strawman that we can expect from frequentists :) Both crashes have been explained and it's bleeding obvious that they do not relate to the plane in itself.

Have they been expained within days of the crash? Last I heard the exact circumstances of 370's crash is still unknown. 17 took several years for the official report to come out.

In the case of MH17, there were strong indications it had been shot down within days at most, and once the Russian-backed rebels let investigators into the area, one found pieces of wreckage showing shrapnel damage. Hardly consistent with a defect in the airplane.

Official doings take time; if I went out in the street and killed someone in plain view of lots of witnesses, it would still take years for a final verdict to be passed in the courts - yet there would be no doubt as such as to what had happened.

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