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An Insulin Index of Foods (1994)

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Re: An Insulin Index of Foods (1994)

#71

Post by keymone »

wdewind wrote: post #9
keymone wrote: post #8

> However, some proteinand fat-rich foods (eggs, beef, fish, lentils, cheese, cake, anddoughnuts) induced as much insulin secretion as did some carbohydrate-rich foods (eg, beef was equal to brown rice andfish was equal to grain bread). what? that makes zero sense, at least in case with fat. anybody got quick explanation for this? Edit: found the TLDR explanation in another part of the paper > postprandial insulin re…

This actually makes a ton of sense and is what people on the sidelines of the insulin debate have been screaming since Gary Taubes starting publishing his work about dietary sugar. Unfortunately it's given people a very non-nuanced view of the science. The problem is not dietary sugar, it is blood sugar levels, which are elevated by many things (including protein and fat), but more than anything by excess calories. T…

Regarding calorie control - has it not been shown that in ketosis your basal metabolic rate and hunger are generally lower? So feeding people static amount of calories isn’t really measuring the same thing to what happens in the wild - eating until satiety?

Re: An Insulin Index of Foods (1994)

#72

Post by nradov »

will_brown wrote: post #65
nradov wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there any clinical research showing improved health outcomes for combining black pepper with turmeric?

There are published human and animal Studies showing that piperine enhances serum concentration, extent of absorption and bioavailability of curcumin by 2,000%.

Yes but is there any hard evidence that leads to improved health outcomes in humans?

Re: An Insulin Index of Foods (1994)

#73

Post by soulbadguy »

wdewind wrote: post #9
keymone wrote: post #8

> However, some proteinand fat-rich foods (eggs, beef, fish, lentils, cheese, cake, anddoughnuts) induced as much insulin secretion as did some carbohydrate-rich foods (eg, beef was equal to brown rice andfish was equal to grain bread). what? that makes zero sense, at least in case with fat. anybody got quick explanation for this? Edit: found the TLDR explanation in another part of the paper > postprandial insulin re…

This actually makes a ton of sense and is what people on the sidelines of the insulin debate have been screaming since Gary Taubes starting publishing his work about dietary sugar. Unfortunately it's given people a very non-nuanced view of the science. The problem is not dietary sugar, it is blood sugar levels, which are elevated by many things (including protein and fat), but more than anything by excess calories. T…

> But guess what? Net the body is really pretty good at smoothing this stuff out, it's sort of the entire point of fat storage.

Any resource to validate this claim. This is just a reformulation of the CICO argument. Saying the body "is good at smoothing this out" is tautological at saying that the distribution of the calories across the time domain (the IF crow) or accros the macro domain ( paleo peps) doesn't matter. And as i know we don't know that yet.

> that the insulin is consume more calories which is causing damage, not the insulin itself.

Again any claim to this ? Most reference i see have this causation relationship reversed....

Re: An Insulin Index of Foods (1994)

#74

Post by will_brown »

nradov wrote: post #72
will_brown wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are published human and animal Studies showing that piperine enhances serum concentration, extent of absorption and bioavailability of curcumin by 2,000%.

Yes but is there any hard evidence that leads to improved health outcomes in humans?

What’s “hard evidence”?

There are no shortage of published studies about the health benefits in humans. You might start with “Curcumin: A review of its effects on Human Health”. “Research suggests that curcumin can help in the management of oxidative and inflammatory conditions, metabolic syndrome, arthritis, Anxiety, and hyperlipidemia.” The same study finds it may also help with exercise induced inflammation and muscle soreness, speeding up recovery in active people and a low dose can provide health benefits for people who have no diagnosed Heath conditions. Available at ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

UCLA just published a study that curcumin improves memory and mood.

Re: An Insulin Index of Foods (1994)

#77

Post by JonesWilly »

From a physicians standpoint I am very impressed with the accuracy of the comments on this article. There are a few sticking points/arguable conjectures being made but overall an excellent discourse on a multifaceted topic such as insulin/glucose metabolism....

Re: An Insulin Index of Foods (1994)

#78

Post by ebg13 »

wdewind wrote: post #9
keymone wrote: post #8

> However, some proteinand fat-rich foods (eggs, beef, fish, lentils, cheese, cake, anddoughnuts) induced as much insulin secretion as did some carbohydrate-rich foods (eg, beef was equal to brown rice andfish was equal to grain bread). what? that makes zero sense, at least in case with fat. anybody got quick explanation for this? Edit: found the TLDR explanation in another part of the paper > postprandial insulin re…

This actually makes a ton of sense and is what people on the sidelines of the insulin debate have been screaming since Gary Taubes starting publishing his work about dietary sugar. Unfortunately it's given people a very non-nuanced view of the science. The problem is not dietary sugar, it is blood sugar levels, which are elevated by many things (including protein and fat), but more than anything by excess calories. T…

> But guess what? Net the body is really pretty good at smoothing this stuff out, it's sort of the entire point of fat storage.

So why can't I eat a month's worth of calories in one go and then fast for the rest of the month with water and multivitamins?

Re: An Insulin Index of Foods (1994)

#79

Post by wdewind »

JanSt wrote: post #66
JanSt wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you're eating two large meals, you're still releasing a lot of insulin, you're still doing the same amount of fat storage, you're just timing it differently. If that works for you, great. Yes, but your body won't be able to use it's stored fat in the presence of insulin. If you keep that up long enough, you can only burn calories coming in. If you eat a lot of meals AND a caloric deficit your body needs to decre…

> Right but what happens when you no longer inputting calories and thus no longer have high insulin? Then you start burning the fat again. You can only keep your insulin levels pathologically elevated if you are eating enough to support that over the long term, regardless of when you eat. No, diabetics have an elevated insulin levels for hours after a meal. Like, after 4 hours it's still at the level a non-diabetic p…

> No, diabetics have an elevated insulin levels for hours after a meal. Like, after 4 hours it's still at the level a non-diabetic peaks at after 0.5-1 hour. Eating many meals will keep your insulin levels high all-day.

I have repeatedly said in this thread this doesn't apply to diabetics, who do have an insulin pathology. Diabetics do need to worry about insulin, non-diabetics do not.

> Your body is very bad at burning fat in the presence of insulin. Meal time is only important as to not keep your insulin level elevated all the time.

There is no science that disambiguates between large spikes followed by zero food in take (IF), and small spikes continually at the same calorie levels. Please feel free to send any study you think does.

> It's reversible by either supplementing more food

Again this is only relevant to the post-prandial window. If you are overweight, and have a slow metabolism, and respond by eating a lot of food, you will not successfully "speed up" your metabolism outside of the prandial window. If you are overweight and start dieting, your metabolism with slow down, but the evidence overwhelmingly shows exercise counteracts this, and that the slowdown is reversible when your body fat percentage lowers.

> If you are eating all the time, the short term situation becomes the long term situation, not barely on 24 hour periods but for years on end. This is especially true for diabetics and pre-diabetics, as their insulin level will lower way slower.

No, this is only true if you are eating all the time and also eating too many calories. . Again, please send a link to a study you think says otherwise.

> While I'm not a fan of isocaloric studys, this should work, yes.

Why are you not a fan of the only kind of study that could possibly prove your point? And why hasn't this study ever been successfully completed? Why have studies that attempted to do this been unable to show any difference in outcomes?

> I'm genuinely interested as to what your understanding of insulins / glucagons effect on your body's ability to access fat is.

I don't really know what you're implying here, but I suspect you are still getting hamstrung by the prandial window. Yes, insulin can block your ability to access fat in the short term, no it will not in the long term, and it does not do so entirely either. If you are eating the same number of calories and thus constantly releasing insulin you are blocking some, but not all, lipolysis. Lipolysis is not a binary, nor is insulin release. You can have both of them happening at the same time, even though insulin is blocking some of the lipolysis.

Re: An Insulin Index of Foods (1994)

#80

Post by wdewind »

echelon wrote: post #70
wdewind wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This actually makes a ton of sense and is what people on the sidelines of the insulin debate have been screaming since Gary Taubes starting publishing his work about dietary sugar. Unfortunately it's given people a very non-nuanced view of the science. The problem is not dietary sugar, it is blood sugar levels, which are elevated by many things (including protein and fat), but more than anything by excess calories. T…

It's far too simplistic to argue that it's the average insulin intake that matters. The complex kinetics depends both on rate as well as average / basal dosages. This is a complex system that behaves differently across individuals with varying metabolisms and diets. Spikes can trigger different biological responses that respond to thresholds and equilibria. It's a differential problem, and the answer isn't easy.

> It's far too simplistic to argue that it's the average insulin intake that matters.

I agree, I'm trying to more accurately state what we confidently know based on the available science, rather than what might be true based on our hunches. Insulin spikes being bad are 100% in hunch land.

> The complex kinetics depends both on rate as well as average / basal dosages.

I agree but, again, very little science that disambiguates effectively.

> Spikes can trigger different biological responses that respond to thresholds and equilibria.

Right, this is what the basic science has shown, but what we don't know is what difference this makes within a 24 hour window, or epidemiologically over time.

> It's a differential problem, and the answer isn't easy.

Definitely agree.

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