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High taxes be damned, the rich keep moving to California

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Re: High taxes be damned, the rich keep moving to California

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The value of your charitable donation gets subtracted from your AGI, so you really can get to zero task liability this way. Of course, that's how it's supposed to work, because the reason it's set up that way is that if people actually do that, they have to donate $100K to charity in order to reduce their taxes by about a third that amount. Assuming the charity has about equal effectiveness as the government in usi…

I pass no judgment on whether this is a good thing, only that it's a thing . I can see the argument that maybe society would be better served by a bunch of independent charities that all take voluntary donations. I'm not sure everybody buys that, or that these are donations that wouldn't otherwise be made if there were no tax deduction.

> I can see the argument that maybe society would be better served by a bunch of independent charities that all take voluntary donations. I'm not sure everybody buys that

I think this is mostly just the argument about what should be considered a charity again. If people are donating money to the Foundation for the Preservation of High Housing Costs, that is almost certainly not better than what the government would have done with it (or, for that matter, than setting the money on fire and doing nothing), but then why should that be considered a charity?

Meanwhile the idea that the Gates Foundation isn't making better use of a dollar than the mean government expenditure is pretty ridiculous.

At that point the argument would have to be that you still need money for government services that wouldn't be provided by charities -- assuming that the roads being in disrepair wouldn't cause anyone to donate money to a road-improving charity (and that having one of those wouldn't, as is the case now, be proscribed by law). But that's only a problem if almost everyone prefers to give more of their money to charity than to give less of it to the government, otherwise there are still many people paying taxes to fund government services. And given the size of government revenues despite the existence of the charitable deduction, that is clearly not the problem.

> or that these are donations that wouldn't otherwise be made if there were no tax deduction.

It still works even if it goes the other way. If you were inclined donate $100K of your income regardless but it wasn't deductible then you'd have lost about a third of that to taxes (or more than half if you also take into account state and local taxes in California), leaving that much less for the charity.

Re: High taxes be damned, the rich keep moving to California

#72
post #67

You have to be rich to live in California. Either that or willing to sacrifice your retirement, because saving money is nearly impossible for lower and middle class Californians. There are too many costs that come with living and working there.

Do you mean the Bay Area only or the whole state?

Re: High taxes be damned, the rich keep moving to California

#73
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(In case you're wondering -- you're likely being downvoted for calling the parent 'Broseph' -- it's a bit of a pejorative, which is uncalled for in HN's mostly civil discourse)

This is gatekeeping at best. Pejoratives are fine on HN as long as they're accompanied with something of substance. Comments like "bro this is dumb" are in a whole different class than comments like "bro here's how it works: ". Downvoting something of substance on HN because you dislike informal jargon is really silly if you think about it. I'd like to think he got downvoted because his information was wrong (which i…

From the guidelines https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html :

    Be civil. Don't say things you wouldn't say face-to-face. Don't be snarky. Comments should get more civil and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive.
    When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. "That is idiotic; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to "1 + 1 is 2, not 3."
I'm not really sure what 'gatekeeping' is in this context, but I think that it is closest to calling names/snarky.

For what it's worth, the tax information is more or less accurate to the best of my knowledge.

Re: High taxes be damned, the rich keep moving to California

#74
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is gatekeeping at best. Pejoratives are fine on HN as long as they're accompanied with something of substance. Comments like "bro this is dumb" are in a whole different class than comments like "bro here's how it works: ". Downvoting something of substance on HN because you dislike informal jargon is really silly if you think about it. I'd like to think he got downvoted because his information was wrong (which i…

From the guidelines https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html : Be civil. Don't say things you wouldn't say face-to-face. Don't be snarky. Comments should get more civil and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive. When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. "That is idiotic; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to "1 + 1 is 2, not 3." I'm not really sure what 'gatekeep…

> "That is idiotic; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to "1 + 1 is 2, not 3."

Alright, you got me, they do say that in the rules after all. But, I still don't think "broseph" is bad. People call each other bro(seph) in real life all the time and it's usually a synonym for "dude", "hey", "listen". I'd say OP was going for a funny comment rather than a derisive one.

Re: High taxes be damned, the rich keep moving to California

#76
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Am half of a high earning couple in a bit above this range in California. Surprisingly, my taxes changed very little this year. In years prior, I always had to pay AMT, in which SALT deductions were already disallowed. The new tax law is basically a wash. I don't pay AMT, just pay higher regular. I didn't check exactly but my effective rate this year may even have gone down a little. Many people in this income range…

Interesting to hear this. I used to be a high-earner (was a tax lawyer before a startup founder) in CA and never ran into the AMT. I see several folks mention the AMT below, but if no one was getting a SALT benefit before, how could the cap have been a revenue-raiser (which it was scored as) in the tax bill? I realize that the lower rates help out high earners and can mitigate the effect of the SALT cap. But all high…

> but if no one was getting a SALT benefit before, how could the cap have been a revenue-raiser (which it was scored as) in the tax bill?

It hits people with lower-but-still middle-class to upper-middle-class, who weren't hitting the AMT before but still would have state/local taxes above the SALT cap.

Re: High taxes be damned, the rich keep moving to California

#77

It's almost as if one of the benefits of being rich is that you don't have to worry about things like how much taxes cost. Yes, this can be interpreted in more than one way.

My take is for truly wealthy people, there is where you live for tax purposes and where you spend your time. Those people usually also have a lot of control how they register their income. And so being wealthy really just means that paying more or less taxes is a discretionary expense. Like a lot of other discretionary life style expenses they pay.

Two examples I know of. One guy who had a $200,000 RV parked in a warehouse in SF. With his office upstairs. But he didn't 'live there'. And another whose llc owns a condo by the Marina. That guy doesn't 'live there' either. Both those guys probably paying $100k/year for 'convenience'

Things change radically when you where you live for tax purposes and where you spend your time are the same place. And you can't decide how you are paid. Some friends of mine, high paid working for a fortune 500 wanted to relocate them to Waco Texas. $200k goes a lot farther in Waco TX. And yeah fuck no.

Re: High taxes be damned, the rich keep moving to California

#78
post #72
post #67

You have to be rich to live in California. Either that or willing to sacrifice your retirement, because saving money is nearly impossible for lower and middle class Californians. There are too many costs that come with living and working there.

Do you mean the Bay Area only or the whole state?

And immigrants have no chance?

Re: High taxes be damned, the rich keep moving to California

#79
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Am half of a high earning couple in a bit above this range in California. Surprisingly, my taxes changed very little this year. In years prior, I always had to pay AMT, in which SALT deductions were already disallowed. The new tax law is basically a wash. I don't pay AMT, just pay higher regular. I didn't check exactly but my effective rate this year may even have gone down a little. Many people in this income range…

Interesting to hear this. I used to be a high-earner (was a tax lawyer before a startup founder) in CA and never ran into the AMT. I see several folks mention the AMT below, but if no one was getting a SALT benefit before, how could the cap have been a revenue-raiser (which it was scored as) in the tax bill? I realize that the lower rates help out high earners and can mitigate the effect of the SALT cap. But all high…

If you make $1 M SALT changes are bad news, if you make $500k it doesn't matter.

The media wants it to effect the middle class, so they leave that part out.

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