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On “Open” Distros, Open Source, and Building a Company

elastic.co

31–40 of 131 posts

Re: On “Open” Distros, Open Source, and Building a Company

#31

Lot of bitterness about people forking and bundling ES. If it was so painful for Elastic maybe they should have gone for a more suitable model - you get everything open source and pay for support and priority /early access to security updates. Unlike the current model where you get basic features as open source and have to pay for and use different license if you want to use essential features like monitoring and per…

> pay for support and security updates. Impeding security updates seems rather unethical. Unless you mean backports to old/stable versions, which is still iffy in my mind but does at least maintain a way to stay secure for everyone.

Seems unethical for people benefiting from something to externalize the cost of security, expecting bug hunters to work with no benefits. I could lean toward selling security fixes if it was commercial software. Not sure about free/open yet. If something like Tor, I'd rather we make exceptions regardless of general philosophy just to keep majority of people safe. Especially the kind of folks that help us out with their sacrifices.

Most software isn't like that. My current preference is going back to highly-permissive, shared-source licenses by public-benefit companies whose charters and contracts don't let them screw people in at least all the ways we know about. Perpetual, free licenses w/ no or optional support for non-commercial or small business. Cost goes up with scale from there maybe with enterprise features sold separately. Anything not a competitive advantage, esp building blocks or platform stuff, might get open-sourced. Anyone licensed can modify the software and distribute that to other licensees. Might make exception for features or code in new version so they can't skip payment with backport. Maintains most of benefits of OSS with less risk of proprietary or hybrid licensing.

Charging for security fixes could be a simple way of motivating folks to pay for improvements to the software. A preferred model that's harder to build is using methods that make nearly vulnerability-free software with a warranty against specific types of defects or at specific, defect rates. Cleanroom shops and Praxis Correct-by-Construction did that with an upfront premium applied with defect rate in warranty fixed at supplier's cost. So, still thinking on specifics of all of that or potential integrations.

Re: On “Open” Distros, Open Source, and Building a Company

#32
Clicking through to the other blog posts, it becomes apparent the the author plays fast and loose with the word "open", to their benefit. They "opened up" by providing gratis licenses to some of their software. They don't call it "open source", but the phrase "open source" is also scattered around the articles, so that "open" benefits by proximal association.

They're free to license their software however they want; I don't use it so I really don't care. But it really rankles when someone extols the virtues of open source and waxes rhetoric about how open they are, and yet the software they offer is proprietary by default. They "double down on open", but the open source distribution is opt-in.

I cannot help but feel that the articles are deliberately constructed to mislead. That's a serious accusation and I wish I could be more charitable in how I interpret them but the terminology is so consistent that it cannot be an accident -- gratis-but-proprietary is always "open", libre is never just "open" but always "open source".

Technically correct isn't enough. No-one's explicitly staked "open" as being the same as "open source". But in the context of this conversation "open" is an obvious contraction of "open source" and to use the obvious contraction to mean something diametrically opposed is not reasonable or ok; especially when "source available" is widely understood. The same thing was attempted with the Commons License.

The intent behind words is important. Persuasive oratory is fine but using those tactics to mislead does not engender trust, especially when the beneficiary is the one speaking and not the audience.

Re: On “Open” Distros, Open Source, and Building a Company

#33
post #10

This is a really great response and I'm curious how AWS will respond. It's particularly damning because AWS was arguing from a position of moral authority on the move, which I think was disingenuous. They wanted to create a fork and act like they weren't. Shay just called them out on it. I also wrote up my own thoughts, but it's obviously not as relevant as this. I'm a little more blunt about what AWS is doing. I eve…

Elastic doesn't have much moral authority either when they keep using the word "open" in reference to code that isn't open source. But they never say "open source" so technically correct.

EDIT: you've remarked elsewhere on the thread about commercial and economic realities, so I want to take the opportunity to qualify my statement: they're free to license and monetize their code however they want. It's what I see as deceptive intent that I'm having a (very strong) reaction to.

Re: On “Open” Distros, Open Source, and Building a Company

#34
Actions speak louder than words. Amazon's words [1] were backed up by action- specifically, the public release of Open Distro for Elasticsearch and several useful, advanced features under an Apache 2.0 license.

This post from Elastic consists of vague claims of 'FUD' and of their commercial code being 'bluntly copied', without any further clarifying details or responsive action to back them up. (E.g., if you have real evidence of Amazon copying proprietary code, which I doubt, then announce the copyright infringement lawsuit you have just filed, don't weakly allude to your grievances in a blog post.)

Conspicuously, the post did not contain any defense or even mention of Amazon's key accusations of "significant intermingling of proprietary code into the code base", or its claim that "the innovation focus has shifted from furthering the open source distribution to making the proprietary distribution popular." The only response offered is a vague, generic "we believe in open source" - again with no concrete action backing up those empty words.

If this is the best and only response Elastic is able to offer, I fully expect Amazon to keep the high ground in this controversy.

[1] https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/opensource/keeping-open-source-...

Re: On “Open” Distros, Open Source, and Building a Company

#35
Remember that AWS pays the Open Source Initiative, and that their members often post on Open Source related topics here without disclosing their conflict of interest.

Remember that AWS takes from developers, but doesn't give back anywhere near what they have made from the communities work.

Rather than supporting Elastic... they decide to make a hostile fork. AWS are a bunch of jerks.

Re: On “Open” Distros, Open Source, and Building a Company

#36

Actions speak louder than words. Amazon's words [1] were backed up by action- specifically, the public release of Open Distro for Elasticsearch and several useful, advanced features under an Apache 2.0 license. This post from Elastic consists of vague claims of 'FUD' and of their commercial code being 'bluntly copied', without any further clarifying details or responsive action to back them up. (E.g., if you have rea…

actions? I think this is speaking for itself: https://www.elastic.co/downloads/elasticsearch-oss What has Amazon contributed to yet? Repackage other open source projects that was already existing? I don't call it a contribution.

Re: On “Open” Distros, Open Source, and Building a Company

#37

Aws is copying others’ efforts and earning billions. Nothing is being given back to the community, instead Amazon execs buy Bay Area luxuries. Stop aws manipulating innovative projects in the name of managed services. Elastic, mongo, Kafka, redis, all are being preyed upon.

> Nothing is being given back to the community

To be specific and on-topic, Open Distro for Elasticsearch is being given back to the community under an Apache 2.0 license.

Re: On “Open” Distros, Open Source, and Building a Company

#38

Remember that AWS pays the Open Source Initiative, and that their members often post on Open Source related topics here without disclosing their conflict of interest. Remember that AWS takes from developers, but doesn't give back anywhere near what they have made from the communities work. Rather than supporting Elastic... they decide to make a hostile fork. AWS are a bunch of jerks.

What is the "Open Source Institute"? If you mean the Open Source Initiative, then yes, I have posted on open-source related topics here, yes, I am a member of the OSI (I joined... two weeks ago? mostly so I could vote for OSI board members who are committed to opposing corporate influence over the open source definition), and no, I do not have a conflict of interest. I paid the OSI $40 to join. I receive no money from the OSI; I certainly receive no money that Amazon donated to the OSI. I am not OSI staff, and I think the OSI only has one paid staff member. Saying there's a conflict of interest is like saying that individual ACLU members have a conflict of interest when speaking about a company that donates to the ACLU, or that Amazon Prime members have a conflict of interest when speaking about Amazon.

(I am, as it happens, rather opposed to Amazon as a company. I canceled my Prime membership; I try to shop anywhere else if possible; I celebrated the loss of NYC HQ2. But in this case, I think they're in the right.)

Re: On “Open” Distros, Open Source, and Building a Company

#39

Remember that AWS pays the Open Source Initiative, and that their members often post on Open Source related topics here without disclosing their conflict of interest. Remember that AWS takes from developers, but doesn't give back anywhere near what they have made from the communities work. Rather than supporting Elastic... they decide to make a hostile fork. AWS are a bunch of jerks.

> Remember that AWS takes from developers, but doesn't give back anywhere near what they have made from the communities work.

For a "bunch of jerks" they sure do a lot of open source stuff.

https://aws.amazon.com/opensource/

Re: On “Open” Distros, Open Source, and Building a Company

#40
post #28

Aws is copying others’ efforts and earning billions. Nothing is being given back to the community, instead Amazon execs buy Bay Area luxuries. Stop aws manipulating innovative projects in the name of managed services. Elastic, mongo, Kafka, redis, all are being preyed upon.

> Stop aws manipulating innovative projects in the name of managed services. How? Redis is trying, and got backlash. Mongo is trying, and got backlash. Confluent is trying, and got backlash. We've rather got to pick our poison here: do we want companies to open their code and have it used for managed services/cloned, or do we want them to close it and keep making cool tech? I recall reading about the model Google use…

A lot of conversation around the backlash was about the insinuation that the new licenses were open when they weren't. "Apache 2 + Commons Clause" is an abuse of both the Apache license and the concept of the commons; the SSPL was submitted to the OSI for approval when it clearly did not meet the definition.
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