Live data from Hacker News

Leaderless Debian

lwn.net

51–60 of 119 posts

Re: Leaderless Debian

#51

Controversial opinion warning, and I would love to hear some counterpoints outside of my thought bubble. I've never understood the appeal of Debian or Ubuntu, or I guess I don't understand why people would invest so much time in them compared to Fedora and Redhat. In actual buisness dealings Redhat has always led the way in enterprise (whole data centers), kernel development (a bunch of the maintainers work for them…

For a long while Debian and Ubuntu were the obvious choice for a free-as-in-beer (and not just free-as-in-speech) server OS. Fedora doesn't have an LTS program, and CentOS, Scientific Linux, et al. were unofficial. (CentOS is now more official so that benefit has gone away a bit.) Debian has an enterprise-compatible release cycle - a new release every 2 years give or take a few months, each one gets security updates for a year after the next release is available - and you can use the same OS the Debian developers use. Ubuntu has an even-more-friendly LTS release cycle, also every 2 years with security updates for 5 years instead of 3.

About 10 years ago I was responsible for some servers running Fedora and some servers running Debian. Fedora's update cycle was way too fast, but we also knew that switching to CentOS would get us software that was way too behind to be useful, and we'd be responsible for building a lot of stuff in /usr/local ourselves.

A small technical difference is that the dpkg ecosystem has a feature called "diversions" that let you cleanly say that you want to replace a packaged file. A config management system can use this to avoid having config management and the package manager fight each other. I'm the current maintainer of https://github.com/sipb/config-package-dev , a tool that lets you build Debian packages that express system configuration, and I've ended up using it at 3 of my last 4 jobs. For the Fedora servers, we were using some mix of checking out /etc from Subversion and rebuilding packages on our own. We surveyed our options and determined that we weren't really better off with any of the "real" config management options at the time (to be fair, modern config management hadn't really taken off then) and the lack of diversions meant we were better off rebuilding packages that we wanted to make changes to.

Re: Leaderless Debian

#52

Controversial opinion warning, and I would love to hear some counterpoints outside of my thought bubble. I've never understood the appeal of Debian or Ubuntu, or I guess I don't understand why people would invest so much time in them compared to Fedora and Redhat. In actual buisness dealings Redhat has always led the way in enterprise (whole data centers), kernel development (a bunch of the maintainers work for them…

Because once getting started ~20 years ago (first with FreeBSD, then dabbled in Slackware, then Debian => Linux) re-learning the location of config files is not a priority and indeed I would avoid like the plague. Remembering slight syntax changes between distros / CLI switches that work on one but not another / similes (does this platform use "remove" or "uninstall"?) is the bane of my life.

Also I have never got on with yum. I still don't. It's a mystery of a program compared to apt or pkg.

Learning RHEL would've been useful (but not essential) in my career, but 20 years ago that wasn't obvious.

Re: Leaderless Debian

#53
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, for a long time, deb/apt were way superior to what rpm/yum offered. Heck, Debian had apt way earlier than Red Hat had yum. If anything, Red Hat should have adopted apt. In terms of sheer number of dumb competing initiatives, Ubuntu > Red Hat > Debian.

So I've heard this before, and I really want to know what are the things that make apt better? The only thing I can see is that yum was pretty slow (dnf seems to be marginally better). Otherwise, the rpm package format seems pretty on par with deb and apt seems like a super crusty interface with multiple commands and stuff.

apt is a dependency resolver, and both apt-get and aptitude (an alternative implementation) are good at dependency resolution. Pre-yum (so for RHEL before 2007), there wasn't a good dependency resolver on RHEL. yum and dnf have each improved significantly on this, but it's a lot nicer to get the packages you need and know that they're compatible than to find RPMs and install them and see if things work.

As a consequence, Debian packaging policy is (in my experience) a lot more aggressive about using detailed dependency-resolution metadata to establish constraints and define compatibility, which makes for a more annoying developer experience but a nicer end-user experience.

Re: Leaderless Debian

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish it gets obsolete as it's an abomination.

How is it an abomination? It seems to have served its purpose well so far. It is relatively easy to use and hasn't gotten in the way of anything I've wanted to use it for yet.

It ships custom kernel and promotes doing things in a different manner that we are used to with Linux - boot.txt, overlays, rpi.gpio (even different gpio numbering scheme), raspicam and so on. Some of these are meant to make things easier for newcomers but IMHO it makes stuff much worse as you have a "special" rPi environment instead of standard Linux on ARM board environment.

You can run mainline on rPi just fine, with standard tools - the only problem is that most rPi projects on the internet won't work as they target Raspbian instead of Linux.

Re: Leaderless Debian

#55

Controversial opinion warning, and I would love to hear some counterpoints outside of my thought bubble. I've never understood the appeal of Debian or Ubuntu, or I guess I don't understand why people would invest so much time in them compared to Fedora and Redhat. In actual buisness dealings Redhat has always led the way in enterprise (whole data centers), kernel development (a bunch of the maintainers work for them…

Why Debian? It values freedom:

  A) of software - DFSG
  B) of decisionmaking - Debian constitution
  C) of choice
Stemming from that, there are the following advantages I value (opinion ahead):

  * both installed program and source is just an apt command away (A, C)
  * has a large repository of software (historically largest; nowadays it's still among the largest) (A, C)
  * security support for stable release for the whole archive (cf. Ubuntu, RHEL) (A)
  * software from repository aims to play nice together (C)
  * true community distro, independent from any single vendor (B)
  * multiple kernels, multiple desktop environments, multiple init systems, a truckload of architectures (C)

Re: Leaderless Debian

#56
post #20

This could be a great opportunity for someone looking to step into a leadership role.

It is not: https://danielpocock.com/what-does-democracy-mean-in-free-so...

The current Debian "developers" have reached uniform agreed that:

1) Neither of them will participate in election

2) People outside of "developer" circle (including major contributors, who do most of actual work on Debian) can't participate in election

The whole "crisis" is artificially created. Not like that matters, — most of decision making is already done by corporate employees, not some fictitious "community leader".

Re: Leaderless Debian

#57
> The good news is that this possibility, too, has been foreseen in the constitution. In the absence of a project leader, the chair of the technical committee and the project secretary are empowered to make decisions — as long as they are able to agree on what those decisions should be. Since Debian developers are famously an agreeable and non-argumentative bunch, there should be no problem with that aspect of things.

Even if nobody puts their name this week or the next or the week after, and even with the sarcastic remark in the last sentence, it looks like this is not such a big deal after all.

> In other words, the project will manage to muddle along for a while without a leader, though various aspects of business could slow down and become more awkward if the current candidate drought persists.

Why should it muddle along or slow down? All the responsibilities listed (and linked to in a mail in the mailing list) seem to be things that others could take up, either individually or as smaller groups. It's something that could be worked out over a period of time.

> One might well wonder, though, why there seems to be nobody who wants to take the helm of this project for a year. The fact that it is an unpaid position requiring a lot of time and travel might have something to do with it.

The last sentence is probably the issue. Couldn't sponsorships help? The last thing we need is Debian to become corporatized.

Donate to Debian at https://www.debian.org/donations

Re: Leaderless Debian

#58

> Since Debian developers are famously an agreeable and non-argumentative bunch, there should be no problem with that aspect of things. Is this sarcasm? I don't read LWN enough to know if they are dryly joking and I don't read Debian listserv's to know if it's true or not.

Before, when Debian Wheezy was the current stable version, I would have read this and assumed no sarcasm and agreed wholeheartedly. But these days, I'm with you, I just can't tell. Given the recent article by Michael Stapleburg[1] that made it to the front page of HN the other day and now this it seems like things are a bit rocky at Debian these days. A shame too because even though I don't use it that much any more…

I actually think things are a lot less rocky these days - nothing in Michael Stapelberg's post is new, it's just a difference of scale and perhaps the developer population getting a bit older and more committed to their day jobs. There are a lot of things helping with scale: Alioth (running a fork of SourceForge's code) was replaced with Salsa (running GitLab), which effectively collapsed the options for version control from CVS, SVN, Git, Darcs, etc. to just Git. Debhelper 9 standardized a ton of workflows. Team maintenance is a lot more common than individual maintenance, and uploading packages owned by unresponsive maintainers has gotten a lot more socially acceptable. But a lot of the old problems have scaled more quickly than solutions: if you're doing an archive-wide change, there are more packages you need to touch, more people you need to contact, etc., so each old problem happens more.

(I also don't think any of the problems in that post are about developers being disagreeable or argumentative - just about Debian having a lot of technical debt and no easy way to pay it down.)

Re: Leaderless Debian

#59
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Before, when Debian Wheezy was the current stable version, I would have read this and assumed no sarcasm and agreed wholeheartedly. But these days, I'm with you, I just can't tell. Given the recent article by Michael Stapleburg[1] that made it to the front page of HN the other day and now this it seems like things are a bit rocky at Debian these days. A shame too because even though I don't use it that much any more…

I actually think things are a lot less rocky these days - nothing in Michael Stapelberg's post is new, it's just a difference of scale and perhaps the developer population getting a bit older and more committed to their day jobs. There are a lot of things helping with scale: Alioth (running a fork of SourceForge's code) was replaced with Salsa (running GitLab), which effectively collapsed the options for version cont…

Fair enough and based on what I read yesterday your comments about problems scaling faster than solutions makes a lot of sense. You seem to be more on top of it then me.

As someone who no longer uses it but has a lot of history using Debian I hope you are correct and that this latest issue of not finding a leader according to the standard schedule is just something they route around. Based on the tone of the end of today's article it sounds like that's the case.

Re: Leaderless Debian

#60

Controversial opinion warning, and I would love to hear some counterpoints outside of my thought bubble. I've never understood the appeal of Debian or Ubuntu, or I guess I don't understand why people would invest so much time in them compared to Fedora and Redhat. In actual buisness dealings Redhat has always led the way in enterprise (whole data centers), kernel development (a bunch of the maintainers work for them…

Debian is a community project based on the practical willingness of individuals to work on fixing problems, usually ones that affect themselves. Red Hat is a company solving problems for customers. Two different approaches that sometimes align into similar solutions and sometimes don't.

A good example is the Initramfs-tools that debian created. Before (most, all?) distros just had a bunch of shell scripts mostly concatenated together, but hard coding that for every possible configuration that Debian allows was painful for the maintainers so they created initramfs-tools. They did not have a bunch of consultants which could sell handcrafted solutions to customers.

Red Hat decided many years later to create a similar solutions, but for "reasons" did not want to port initramfs-tools and created Dracut. Debian is now considering porting dracut since maintaining initramfs-tools is a lot of work which could be spent elsewhere. The debconf bof on that was basically the maintainer asking "OK, anyone interesting in continuing maintaining initramfs? How did the test port of dracut go?".

The incentives and politics in a community project are very different from those within a company. Not always better for everybody, but very distinct.

Post reply on HN