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Nginx to Be Acquired by F5 Networks

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Re: Nginx to Be Acquired by F5 Networks

#171

So...what is the future of enterprise open source? Is there a future for enterprise open source? If you start a company and open source your core/clients, your product becomes part of AWS, and AWS runs you into the ground. If you mix in proprietary licenses to protect yourself, AWS forks your core, adds in open-source licensed clients, then runs you into the ground (and you lose open-source contributors/supporters as…

I'd say this is more of a problem with VC funded OSS companies treating a commodity as an investment that needs to be milked where a few individuals working efficiently might otherwise be able to make a very comfortable living doing e.g. support and consulting. Many smaller projects are surviving just fine like this.

But when such projects take on tens/hundreds of millions of funding, it is inevitable that the technology becomes secondary to paying back the investors 10x, no matter what. Ironically most of that kind of funding seems to go towards sales and marketing rather than R&D. Usually core committers are only a minority of employees in such companies and things get worse when that no longer includes the C-level executives.

This creates a lot of friction when inevitably somebody else undercuts such projects in terms of quality, features or price. This is inevitable because all software eventually becomes a commodity. Your fancy pants DB clustering solution might be shit hot this year but you can bet there will be half a dozen projects imitating what you did within years.

This is basically what is happened to mongodb. It's all about diversifying, "adding value", proprietary extensions, etc. for their paying customers instead of doing what they were good at for all their users. And courtesy of the license, copyright transfers and outside contributions dry up and it's all on the company to do everything in house. Great, as long there's money but when that dries up it creates problems. Meanwhile projects like postgresql and others provide more or less drop in replacements, because they can and because there are users and developers in having that. Apparently they are still doing fine in terms of share price. Best of luck to them but I probably won't be using it.

Most healthy OSS projects out there have licenses that are well understood from a legal point of view and battle-tested in years/decades of use. Some have quirks that need working around (e.g. the classpath exception for GPL v2), others are fine as is (e.g. Apache 2.0). They also have a plurality of copyright holders spread over many companies that makes re-licensing impractical. Most such projects have a core of developers that are typically employed by a big company taking an interest in the project. Having key people in key projects is of strategic importance to them and ensures their interests are taken care off.

The whole point of OSS is commoditization and pooling resources between otherwise less likely to collaborate companies and individuals to get things done better than each of them would be likely to achieve by themselves. That's why most operating systems these days are largely made up of open source software, much of which has had multiple generations of developers working on it. Most of the build tooling around that, same thing. Apple, MS, Google, they all ship mixes of proprietary code and OSS code. Quite a lot of this stuff can be traced back to the early days of unix. Almost every big fortune 500 software company out there pays people to contribute to and represent them in OSS projects that are vital to their business. Even the less popular ones like Oracle actually contribute a lot. That's not charity; it's key to their success.

MS just retired two generations of their in house browser in favor of an open source project primarily backed with Google and with significant portions of Apple contributions from back in the Webkit days. If you'd have to choose two competitors for MS, those would probably be at the top of your list. Why did they do this? Browsers are a commodity and they were negatively differentiating with their in house efforts (as demonstrated by world + dog installing something else). They tried to fix it (Edge) and it didn't work out. All of the surviving browsers are now built around open source projects. I think Edge is probably going down as the last non OSS browser to be widely used.

I use open source components, libraries, and tools for almost everything I do. I love Github. I share code there myself. Most of the stuff I depend on has neither VCs nor much corporate funding behind it and its fine. Some of it does have VC funding and its also fine. My life would be hell if I had to reinvent all those wheels.

I agree funding OSS development is key but I don't agree that that needs to primarily come from companies that own the software and sell licenses+support. That's not how most OSS software I use works; it instead thrives on companies using and paying for people to contribute. Nginx is one of many software packages that I use. I don't think I'll ever pay for licensing or support; because frankly they are relatively unimportant to me. As for the dozens of npm dependencies and their hundreds of transitive dependencies, nope. Not a cent. I would probably consider SAAS solutions when it makes sense; as I have done with e.g. Mariadb and Elasticsearch. But mostly OSS works because it is free as in speech and beer.

In the case of nginx, there are dozens of OSS web servers out there. It's just one of many moving parts I need to worry about. I'll pick whatever is cheap and convenient.

Re: Nginx to Be Acquired by F5 Networks

#173
post #49

I guess that signals it's time for nginx users to check out possible alternatives - just in case, if things turn out for the worse. I can recommend having a look at https://varnish-cache.org/ - while its performance might not be 100% up to par with nginx in some (very, very high-end) scenarios, it has many other fortes that nginx (at least in its FOSS release version; I've never used nginx plus) just cannot match in…

I really like h2o ( https://h2o.examp1e.net ) as a nginx replacement, very nice software, lot of features, extensibility using mruby and amazing perf.

h2o is neat, although its next version has sat in beta for something like 9 months.

Re: Nginx to Be Acquired by F5 Networks

#174
post #170

So...what is the future of enterprise open source? Is there a future for enterprise open source? If you start a company and open source your core/clients, your product becomes part of AWS, and AWS runs you into the ground. If you mix in proprietary licenses to protect yourself, AWS forks your core, adds in open-source licensed clients, then runs you into the ground (and you lose open-source contributors/supporters as…

Note that none of the successful large companies are actually open sourcing their 'secret sauce'. There is no open source version of Google's search engine, Facebook's social network etc. It's only supporting tools and infrastructure they release (i.e. commoditization of their complements or dependencies.) A product company open sourcing their core product is committing suicide on the product front. Sure, there will…

To expand on this, these companies are not open sourcing their data. Facebook no longer gives you access to the social graph. Google doesnt have an open API for their search results or search volume.

Re: Nginx to Be Acquired by F5 Networks

#175

So...what is the future of enterprise open source? Is there a future for enterprise open source? If you start a company and open source your core/clients, your product becomes part of AWS, and AWS runs you into the ground. If you mix in proprietary licenses to protect yourself, AWS forks your core, adds in open-source licensed clients, then runs you into the ground (and you lose open-source contributors/supporters as…

> If you start a company and open source your core/clients, your product becomes part of AWS It seems not obvious to everyone, but you don't have to use a license, that allows AWS to run you into the ground. Take a look at API Copyleft License: https://github.com/kemitchell/api-copyleft-license

This is not a FOSS license in the sense of the Debian Free Software Guidelines or Open Source Definition: it compels you to publish your changes, even if you're only making internal use. Free software / open source licenses do not require that. Most obviously, it fails the "desert island" and "dissident" tests of https://people.debian.org/~bap/dfsg-faq.html . (There are plenty of perfectly fine licenses that are not DFSG/OSD licenses, but it's not what most people mean by "open source," and importantly it will be impossible to get this software into a mainstream Linux distro, so you won't have the sort of adoption that actual open source licenses get you.)

Also, it's not clear this would prevent AWS from running you into the ground. Amazon is more than happy to publish the source code of what they run internally; they make their money off operations and not software, so they're perfectly happy to commoditize software. The copyright holder is the one trying to make an "open core" business. AWS can just reimplement it.

Re: Nginx to Be Acquired by F5 Networks

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could AGPL and sell proprietary exceptions. Amazon won't touch AGPL code.

Maybe. At least our company won't touch GPL code; as one colleague described to me, if you violate a proprietary license, a company will come after you for money, while violating a GPL license gets the EFF involved who will come after you for your source code. I'm still wary, though. I could imagine if the resultant fines or source code releases from violating a GPL license weren't a strong enough deterrent, you coul…

(Usually not the EFF; more likely Software Freedom Conservancy or someone. EFF is more digital rights and privacy stuff, not copyright.)

A copyright holder can't get anything more from you by using the GPL. Infringement is infringement. The difference is that a company is usually happy to settle in exchange for a properly paid license, and an open source hacker instead is happy to settle in exchange for complying with the license. You're always free to take it to court and pay the damages from infringement, but you're not going to end up with a valid license in either case, so you'll have to stop distributing the software.

The actual difference, probably, is that you're a (moral) competitor of the open source hacker, and if you're not a competitor of the proprietary company, they have no interest in undermining the secrecy of your code or causing you to go out of business, even if the could potentially force that if they went to court. They're likely to consider "pay us a percentage of revenues" as a win condition.

Also, lawyers are not like Pokemon. You cannot beat the opposing team's lawyers by having more stronger lawyers. You can certainly lose by having bad lawyers, but you can only be guaranteed to win by being in the right.

Re: Nginx to Be Acquired by F5 Networks

#177

So...what is the future of enterprise open source? Is there a future for enterprise open source? If you start a company and open source your core/clients, your product becomes part of AWS, and AWS runs you into the ground. If you mix in proprietary licenses to protect yourself, AWS forks your core, adds in open-source licensed clients, then runs you into the ground (and you lose open-source contributors/supporters as…

There absolutely is a future for enterprise open source. It's not through direct monetization, but rather driving down the price of complements for existing product lines. Running a service on AWS requires two goods. High-margin computing resources that Amazon really wants to sell, and the software to turn those computing resources into solutions to business problems. Solving the business problems has a fixed dollar…

Amazon figured this out and surrounded their high-margin computing resources with a dizzying array of free-as-in-beer tools.

But they also figured out that making their free-as-in-beer tools also free-as-in-freedom open source, they'd lift all clouds and not just their own.

As the dominant player, Amazon loses from anything that reduces vendor lock-in. That's why precious little of Amazon's cloud tooling is released on Github.

With Kubernetes, Google made the the opposite calculation. As a challenger, it's to Google's benefit to open-source cloud tooling like Kubernetes. Even though their competitors benefit, Google benefits more from standardized tools that reduce switching costs.

Re: Nginx to Be Acquired by F5 Networks

#178
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Hashicorp[0] has nailed down the open source enterprise model perfectly. Where they make open source software for enterprise and provide services to support. [0]: https://www.hashicorp.com

I love Hashicorp products, however, all of their pricing behind "Contact Sales" is a major turn off. Why? I don't want to be the subject of a constant dripping of emails, calls, and missings from a sales person who is constant to get their numbers and puts me in their sales automation pipeline. Give me a ballpark estimate, I can go to whomever is needed, and we can go from there: I've never ran into a case where "I d…

"How much is it?"

"How much you got?"

Re: Nginx to Be Acquired by F5 Networks

#179
post #94

First time I heard of this company. Their website is in the highest order of marketing speak, but actually offering nothing much. Note to self: security services are a nice way to milk governments & corporations. In any case, I'm glad that Nginx is still available for free and the project will continue to have funding in the future from what looks like a cashed-up company. Besides, if it doesn't work out, it can alwa…

We use their VPN client at where I work...it's a mess. Disconnects all the time, IF you can even get it to connect in the first place, it like's to sit there for up to 20 minutes sometimes before it finally connects. Almost never works with captive portals, and all sorts of syncing issues with our network drives. To be fair, it might just have to do with our company's implementation, our IT department pretty hit or m…

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