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Is It a Duck or a Rabbit? For Google Cloud Vision, Depends on Image Rotation

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Re: Is It a Duck or a Rabbit? For Google Cloud Vision, Depends on Image Rotation

#91

Post by angry_octet »

2muchcoffeeman wrote: post #87
Klathmon wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the human brain fails at this if it's rotated also... If you showed me the rabbit rotation of the picture, i'd tell you with pretty high confidence that it's a rabbit. If you showed me the duck rotation, i'd tell you with pretty high confidence that it's a duck. That's the point of this, it's an illusion. And it did give a bit of an "I don't know" answer for many of the rotations in the middle of the gif/video, w…

But a human brain should only falls for it once. You have your initial reaction, realise it might be the other animal and then from there you know it’s an illusion and the rotation of the picture no longer matters.

If they chose to allow a classification option of (c) optical illusion, then the system could easily learn that. In fact, you could probably make a GAN ambiguous image generator.

Re: Is It a Duck or a Rabbit? For Google Cloud Vision, Depends on Image Rotation

#92

Post by angry_octet »

karakrakow wrote: post #90
gambler wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the real world, you don't want AI to instantly flip from 90% confidence in one direction to 90% confidence in the other direction, because it would cause erratic behavior. What would be preferable is a large zone where it gives both labels .45 score. Then you can apply higher-level reasoning based on the possibility that the object could be either of those two labels (i.e. act on the possibility of the most danger…

This. Maybe the AI needs to know somehow that it's the same image it saw a few seconds ago, but now presented at a different angle or the AI itself should look at an image at different angles, just to be sure, that is how humans sometimes look at pictures if they are confused. Something to contextualize every image wrt to what it recently saw and make the current decision a little less overconfident.

CV usually does look at images with different rotations, scaling, stretch. The point is that GCV doesn't get stuck on duck when the duck is upside down, it behaves the same way as a human classifier.

I'm looking forward to ReCAPTCHA asking "Click the images of things that are upside down."

Re: Is It a Duck or a Rabbit? For Google Cloud Vision, Depends on Image Rotation

#93

Post by Faark »

Felz wrote: post #57

Is it concerning that there are short, sudden drops in prediction in the middle of a block otherwise solidly classified as rabbit/duck? I don't know much ML, does anyone know why it'd be so discontinuous?

To me it just reinforces those algorithms are only comparable to spouting out the intuitive, unconscious first impression of what they see in the image.

Like if something passes through your field of vision an you recognize it as lets say a god. But a second later you feel something was off, turn around, look at it in details and determine it to be a weird looking cat? Yeah, those "AI"s so far seem incapable of such deep thinking.

Re: Is It a Duck or a Rabbit? For Google Cloud Vision, Depends on Image Rotation

#94

Post by 2muchcoffeeman »

angry_octet wrote: post #91
2muchcoffeeman wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But a human brain should only falls for it once. You have your initial reaction, realise it might be the other animal and then from there you know it’s an illusion and the rotation of the picture no longer matters.

If they chose to allow a classification option of (c) optical illusion, then the system could easily learn that. In fact, you could probably make a GAN ambiguous image generator.

An ambiguous image is not always ambiguous.

Eg clever animal camouflage. A caterpillar that looks like a snake should not be classified as ambiguous. It should always be caterpillar.

Re: Is It a Duck or a Rabbit? For Google Cloud Vision, Depends on Image Rotation

#95

Post by angry_octet »

2muchcoffeeman wrote: post #94
angry_octet wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they chose to allow a classification option of (c) optical illusion, then the system could easily learn that. In fact, you could probably make a GAN ambiguous image generator.

An ambiguous image is not always ambiguous. Eg clever animal camouflage. A caterpillar that looks like a snake should not be classified as ambiguous. It should always be caterpillar.

Ah, but then you open the door to more complex and meaningful classification. For example "insect camouflaged as a stick" or the classic "couch with leopard print pattern".

Re: Is It a Duck or a Rabbit? For Google Cloud Vision, Depends on Image Rotation

#96

Post by joesb »

2muchcoffeeman wrote: post #87
Klathmon wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the human brain fails at this if it's rotated also... If you showed me the rabbit rotation of the picture, i'd tell you with pretty high confidence that it's a rabbit. If you showed me the duck rotation, i'd tell you with pretty high confidence that it's a duck. That's the point of this, it's an illusion. And it did give a bit of an "I don't know" answer for many of the rotations in the middle of the gif/video, w…

But a human brain should only falls for it once. You have your initial reaction, realise it might be the other animal and then from there you know it’s an illusion and the rotation of the picture no longer matters.

What's the correct answer for this? Is it definitely a rabbit regardless of the orientation. Or is it definitely a duck regardless of the orientiation?

I still fail to see how human brain only fall for this illusion once.

Re: Is It a Duck or a Rabbit? For Google Cloud Vision, Depends on Image Rotation

#97

Post by Shorel »

gambler wrote: post #60
ratel wrote: post #46

I quite surprised at the comments on HN so far as nobody seems to see the significance of this. Yes, the image is ambiguous. The point is that Google Cloud Vision gives an unambiguous answer of that image based on the rotation. Transformations of an image are regularly used to improve the results of image recognition. That process fails quit dramatically if in the course of a transformation the answer given is presen…

I'm glad that at least someone here sees the problem, but I am not surprised by the typical reaction of AI apologists in this thread. You always get at least one of the two responses: "OMG, this is amazing, it's just like humans. We're probably close to AGI." "Ha-ha, humans are stupid, so the algorithm giving unexpected result is just a proof that it's better and less biased." Here, we have both in response to the sa…

Humans reading a text in Latin letters will find that d, b, p, and q are different letters.

In most fonts, the only difference is rotation and/or mirroring.

Yet they represent different sounds, they have different meanings.

Rotation is another data point, not something entirely independent from the data.

Re: Is It a Duck or a Rabbit? For Google Cloud Vision, Depends on Image Rotation

#98

Post by dusted »

gambler wrote: post #60
ratel wrote: post #46

I quite surprised at the comments on HN so far as nobody seems to see the significance of this. Yes, the image is ambiguous. The point is that Google Cloud Vision gives an unambiguous answer of that image based on the rotation. Transformations of an image are regularly used to improve the results of image recognition. That process fails quit dramatically if in the course of a transformation the answer given is presen…

I'm glad that at least someone here sees the problem, but I am not surprised by the typical reaction of AI apologists in this thread. You always get at least one of the two responses: "OMG, this is amazing, it's just like humans. We're probably close to AGI." "Ha-ha, humans are stupid, so the algorithm giving unexpected result is just a proof that it's better and less biased." Here, we have both in response to the sa…

I'm just saying it's as a rabbit in one orientation, and valid as a duck in another orientation.

Many things belong in distinct groups depending on their orientation or other physical attributes.

A bucket is, amongst other things, a bucket when standing flat on the ground with the hole facing upwards.

Turn it around, and it becomes the cover for a mole trap, place it on someones head, it becomes a rain cover. Mount a light bulb inside it and it becomes a lampshade.

It's still a bucket, but it's not _primarily_ a bucket in all cases, and shouldn't necessarily be classified as a bucket in all cases. Rotate the plus symbol 45 degrees and you got the letter x. And it is definitely, 100% certainly an x in one orientation and a + in another orientation.

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