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The Brain Is Not a Computer (2016)

aeon.co

61–70 of 75 posts

Re: The Brain Is Not a Computer (2016)

#61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think researchers are working on this very thing, and it seems like the brain does store "visual representations" or at least it can't be ruled out at this point. https://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/08/20/mindreading_mri_spo... And of course, why wouldn't the brain store a visual representation of what you remembered. That would be the easiest way to store and retrieve it, which is why we do that on computers as wel…

> Why wouldn't the brain... Because it isn't how brains work. Recollection is re-experience. The article you link says researchers taught a model how to match patterns to letters, given the presumption that they are letters, for a single subject's MRIs taken while they were experiencing the sight of words and letters. Not at all the same as saying a brain stores data.

At some point the data must be stored physically in the material that makes up our brain. How that is stored could very well be a 1 to 1 mapping, and shouldn't be ruled out.

Re: The Brain Is Not a Computer (2016)

#62
post #39

I think us commenters are all on the same page here :) The author is almost making it seem like models are reality and that people think that. They're not and I don't think anyone has ever thought they were... Further and like other comments already mentioned, the brain is thought of and treated as a turing machine, not a digital computer. It's done this way, because the brain can be mapped to the definition of a tur…

How can the brain be mapped to the definition of a Turning machine? It doesn’t have an equivalent to an infinite tape and it doens’t work accoriding to anything like the table of rules for a Turning machine. Can you point me to a reference for this claim? Most of the comments I’ve read don’t like the article but almost all of the commenters I’ve read don’t seem to have studied this issue. It gives me the impression t…

The 'infinite tape' issue is a red herring that sometimes appears in discussions about these issues. Real computers (such as the one I am typing this on) are informally described as 'Turing equivalent' because they can implement a Universal Turing Machine up to the limitation imposed by their finite memory. An alternative way of looking at it is that their model of computation, augmented with unbounded memory, could implement or simulate a Universal Turing Machine.

This is not the equivocation that it may appear to be, as it establishes a sort of asymptotic boundary between what is possible and what is not (the more memory we have, the closer we can get to it.) It also means, for example, that we don't have to wonder if there is one computer instruction set or architecture that can perform computations that are impossible by another (again, up to having sufficient memory to complete it.)

The author of the claim you are questioning has not, so far, returned to explain what he means, but I think he is saying that the brain is Turing-equivalent in the informal sense given above: we can compute like a Turing machine, up to the available tape/memory (though with a very limited tape, if we are not writing things down...)

If that is so then I (one of the people here criticizing the article) must say that I don't think it is relevant. An alternative interpretation of the statement, that it says it has been shown that that there is a Turing machine equivalent to the human brain, would seem to depend on believing (as I happen to) that the brain's functioning is a matter of electro-biochemistry that could, in principle, be simulated by a computer, but no-one, so far, has given a demonstration, or even a convincing explanation, of how that works at a Turing-machine level of abstraction.

With regard to the quote you offer: I think it is a simple case of rhetorical overreach -- one might need to know the entire history of that brain to fully understand everything there is to know about its current state, but that does not mean that, absent that full history, the state is meaningless. In understanding what a person is thinking, what they remember (which is an aspect of their brain's state) is more important than what actually happened.

Re: The Brain Is Not a Computer (2016)

#63
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can the brain be mapped to the definition of a Turning machine? It doesn’t have an equivalent to an infinite tape and it doens’t work accoriding to anything like the table of rules for a Turning machine. Can you point me to a reference for this claim? Most of the comments I’ve read don’t like the article but almost all of the commenters I’ve read don’t seem to have studied this issue. It gives me the impression t…

The 'infinite tape' issue is a red herring that sometimes appears in discussions about these issues. Real computers (such as the one I am typing this on) are informally described as 'Turing equivalent' because they can implement a Universal Turing Machine up to the limitation imposed by their finite memory. An alternative way of looking at it is that their model of computation, augmented with unbounded memory, could…

I’m a mathematician and tend to take things literally. I should not have mentioned the infinite tape part. What I should have said is that according to the article we don’t store memories in the way that a Turing machine does. There is no tape as such and there is no set of rules that the brains abides in terms of how to do the next step so to speak.

I gathered that the quote I referenced means that the state of a brain at time t is not sufficient to reconstruct memories or other meaningful information. The fundamental point of contention between you and others criticizing the article appears to be that you all believe that there is a storage mechanism in the brain in a similar (analogous?) fashion as a computer. I gather the author claims this is not so. Information is not stored in neurons in such a way that one “retrieves” it by accessing a storage location.

I don’t know enough about this stuff to intelligently comment on the veracity of it. I just know that someone far more knowledgeable than me and just about everyone else commenting says that our intuition about how this stuff works is wrong. That alone is worth causing me to reconsider my intuition on this stuff.

Re: The Brain Is Not a Computer (2016)

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why wouldn't the brain... Because it isn't how brains work. Recollection is re-experience. The article you link says researchers taught a model how to match patterns to letters, given the presumption that they are letters, for a single subject's MRIs taken while they were experiencing the sight of words and letters. Not at all the same as saying a brain stores data.

At some point the data must be stored physically in the material that makes up our brain. How that is stored could very well be a 1 to 1 mapping, and shouldn't be ruled out.

And what if it is instead stored as I felt x, which led to y, which made me think z? It is conditioning of the pattern into neuronal potentials meaning that we can experience the same thing again. This is not the storage of data, it is the conditioning to react the same way at the start of a similar cascade.

We don't record the memory, we make it easier to feel and think the memory again. Like muscles adapting to exercise, our brains adapt to experience. Keep it up long enough and we get good at it.

Re: The Brain Is Not a Computer (2016)

#65
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 'infinite tape' issue is a red herring that sometimes appears in discussions about these issues. Real computers (such as the one I am typing this on) are informally described as 'Turing equivalent' because they can implement a Universal Turing Machine up to the limitation imposed by their finite memory. An alternative way of looking at it is that their model of computation, augmented with unbounded memory, could…

I’m a mathematician and tend to take things literally. I should not have mentioned the infinite tape part. What I should have said is that according to the article we don’t store memories in the way that a Turing machine does. There is no tape as such and there is no set of rules that the brains abides in terms of how to do the next step so to speak. I gathered that the quote I referenced means that the state of a br…

This seems like a really fine distinction, but it's more of an unbounded tape rather than an infinite tape. The tape can only reach infinite length after infinite time.

Re: The Brain Is Not a Computer (2016)

#66
post #39

I think us commenters are all on the same page here :) The author is almost making it seem like models are reality and that people think that. They're not and I don't think anyone has ever thought they were... Further and like other comments already mentioned, the brain is thought of and treated as a turing machine, not a digital computer. It's done this way, because the brain can be mapped to the definition of a tur…

How can the brain be mapped to the definition of a Turning machine? It doesn’t have an equivalent to an infinite tape and it doens’t work accoriding to anything like the table of rules for a Turning machine. Can you point me to a reference for this claim? Most of the comments I’ve read don’t like the article but almost all of the commenters I’ve read don’t seem to have studied this issue. It gives me the impression t…

The brain is a biological machine, it follows the laws of physics. There isn't any part of known physics that prevents us from simulating any number of atoms using a suitibly powerful computer.

A small aside, even simulating a small collection of quantum particles fully is enormously taxing with current computers and adding more particles increases complexity beyond just a linear increase. But this is a mathematical exercise.

Now, it's possible that the human brain depends on some law of physics that is not computable (possible to simulate on a computer), but given the level of study that had gone into neurons, along with the temperature of the brain vs the energy ranges we've examined with colliders, it seems super unlikely.

If it helps, Turing machines with n-dimensional tapes have been proven equivalent to the basic Turing machine.

Re: The Brain Is Not a Computer (2016)

#68
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 'infinite tape' issue is a red herring that sometimes appears in discussions about these issues. Real computers (such as the one I am typing this on) are informally described as 'Turing equivalent' because they can implement a Universal Turing Machine up to the limitation imposed by their finite memory. An alternative way of looking at it is that their model of computation, augmented with unbounded memory, could…

I’m a mathematician and tend to take things literally. I should not have mentioned the infinite tape part. What I should have said is that according to the article we don’t store memories in the way that a Turing machine does. There is no tape as such and there is no set of rules that the brains abides in terms of how to do the next step so to speak. I gathered that the quote I referenced means that the state of a br…

Speaking for myself (I don't necessarily agree with everything that has been said in opposition to this article), I think you are missing my point about memory.

The author is saying our brains do not function like our digital computers, something I think we do all agree on. It is not so clear how the author thinks our brains do work, but he apparently wants us to stop using computer metaphors when discussing their function.

He would have this prohibition extend to the notion that our brains store and retrieve information, which is absurd; one might as well argue that a computer is not a Turing-equivalent device because RAM is not a tape. The author says that scientists will never find copies of words or grammatical rules in the brain, and if, by copies, he means coded in something like UTF-8, then that is, of course, true, but beside the point: if his brain did not have some mechanism that supports the storage and retrieval of this information in some manner, how was he able to write the article in the first place? He claims you won't find copies of Beethoven's 5th. symphony in a brain, but I suspect that at least Beethoven himself, and many conductors of the piece, have had just that - and the soloists who play his piano concertos are not reading from a score, so where does that come from?

I think the author may have ended up making these absurd claims because he is trying to use the trivial brain-does-not-function-like-a-computer argument to prove something that is just an unargued-for intuition: he doesn't seem to think RAM (or perhaps any form of physical information store) could possibly be the foundation for something that works like human memory. He is apparently unaware of the extent that software such as neural networks (or even relational databases) have already extended the concept of information storage and retrieval beyond the simple model of randomly-addressable bytes (which does not, of course, make the point that human memory is like a computer's; what it does show is that the author's low-level comparisons are insufficient to make the larger point he is trying to squeeze out of them.)

Re: The Brain Is Not a Computer (2016)

#69
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m a mathematician and tend to take things literally. I should not have mentioned the infinite tape part. What I should have said is that according to the article we don’t store memories in the way that a Turing machine does. There is no tape as such and there is no set of rules that the brains abides in terms of how to do the next step so to speak. I gathered that the quote I referenced means that the state of a br…

Speaking for myself (I don't necessarily agree with everything that has been said in opposition to this article), I think you are missing my point about memory. The author is saying our brains do not function like our digital computers, something I think we do all agree on. It is not so clear how the author thinks our brains do work, but he apparently wants us to stop using computer metaphors when discussing their fu…

My take on the article and in particular the quote that I referenced in my original post is that the author does not think memory is stored in the way that you and I think it is. The way I think of the brain working with regard to memory is analogous to how computers store information. I’m unable to model it in any other way. But then there’s the quote in the article that even if I had a snapshot of the brain at time t I would not be able to reconstruct something meaningful without knowing the history of that brain’s owner.

I don’t know enough to understand how that is possible or why someone knowledgeable about this stuff thinks this. I have basically the same conception of the brain and how it works as you do. But I’m confronted with the fact that a person far more knowledgeable than me thinks otherwise. It is that fact that causes me to persist in my view with caution. The author may be a crank. I don’t know.

Re: The Brain Is Not a Computer (2016)

#70
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m a mathematician and tend to take things literally. I should not have mentioned the infinite tape part. What I should have said is that according to the article we don’t store memories in the way that a Turing machine does. There is no tape as such and there is no set of rules that the brains abides in terms of how to do the next step so to speak. I gathered that the quote I referenced means that the state of a br…

This seems like a really fine distinction, but it's more of an unbounded tape rather than an infinite tape. The tape can only reach infinite length after infinite time.

True, but for a finite-tape machine, the possible outcomes include 'ran out of tape'. Also, for any finite-tape machine, there is a finite-tape machine that computes whether the first halts, runs out of tape, or runs forever.
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