In Estonian parliamentary election, 44% of the votes were cast online • Hacker News Board

Re: In Estonian parliamentary election, 44% of the votes were cast online

#131

Post by sccxy » Mon, Mar 11, 2019, 9:31 AM UTC

gardaani wrote: post #127

Usually online voting supporters say that it would increase voter turnout. It seems that it hasn't happen in Estonia: 64.2% in 2015 and 63.7% in 2019 [1][2]. Also, I am a bit worried that online voting might give young tech-savvy people an advantage over old and poor people who don't have access to computers or mobile phones. Has there been studies about demographies in these elections? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/w…

Online voting statistics are available here: https://www.valimised.ee/en/archive/statistics-about-interne...

Same smart card is used every online service in Estonia. 96% taxes are done online.

So online voting is not something new for older people. It is just like every other online service.

Re: In Estonian parliamentary election, 44% of the votes were cast online

#132

Post by foepys » Mon, Mar 11, 2019, 9:31 AM UTC

JDiculous wrote: post #128

All these "e-voting can never work" comments just scream ludditism. Estonia has already demonstrated that it works, we have online banking and cryptocurrencies worth billions of dollars in market cap, and people want to say it's not possible. Yeah, ok. Feel free to express your views, but don't pretend to represent the software engineering community.

Nobody said it's impossible. It's just insecure, unverifiable, and non-anonymous.

Unless you inspect every voting machine, smart-card reader, internet connection, encryption algorithm, etc. for every election completely, you can potentially manipule millions of votes from your home from the other side of the planet. Or on a smaller scale, change all votes of one or multiple voting machines.

Re: In Estonian parliamentary election, 44% of the votes were cast online

#133

Post by TulliusCicero » Mon, Mar 11, 2019, 9:31 AM UTC

gardaani wrote: post #127

Usually online voting supporters say that it would increase voter turnout. It seems that it hasn't happen in Estonia: 64.2% in 2015 and 63.7% in 2019 [1][2]. Also, I am a bit worried that online voting might give young tech-savvy people an advantage over old and poor people who don't have access to computers or mobile phones. Has there been studies about demographies in these elections? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/w…

Currently older people vote in much larger numbers than younger people, so I don't see how that's a major concern. Clearly the current setup advantages the elderly in practice.

Re: In Estonian parliamentary election, 44% of the votes were cast online

#134

Post by dalbasal » Mon, Mar 11, 2019, 9:35 AM UTC

I'm curious about what we can do with digital voting, in terms of evolving democracy. If, hypothetically, all mechanical issues are solved...

We could have more direct democracy, with high-frequency referendums, reversible proxies, publicly submitted or endorsed bills. The democracies we have were designed around mechanical limitations, so it stands to reason that (at least some) democracies would change when those limits go away.

That said... there seems to be a dearth of ideas, at least few seemingly useful ones that I ever hear.

If you were making a new constitution for a village or city, what could be done with electronic voting and how does it make it better?

BRTW, links welcome.

Re: In Estonian parliamentary election, 44% of the votes were cast online

#135

Post by Mirioron » Mon, Mar 11, 2019, 9:38 AM UTC

Iv wrote: post #87

deogeo wrote: post #32

"The system has been designed to ensure that voters' computers are not infected by any kind of malware that could change or block their vote." I'm sure this cannot be subverted by an attacker with the resources of USA/China/India/.., or with access to the supply chain from the chip fab onward (don't forget about malware hidden in USB cables!), or or,... And you'd have to be dead sure , because, unlike with physical v…

Typically, the way this is done is through a smartcard, secured and provided by state officials. A vote has to be signed by the key that never leaves this device. So even if you computer is infected by malware down to its USB firmware, it won't be able to fake many things. Just prevent you from voting. My main criticism is that as it is it could still feed the card with the wrong vote to sign. The (state-provided) US…

>My main criticism is that as it is it could still feed the card with the wrong vote to sign. The (state-provided) USB reader should have a small lcd screen to sum up the thing being signed "Vote for Ms.Ryjavik on election #123" "Vote for Yes on vote #432" and a confirmation button.

You can check who you cast your vote for through online voting. You can do it 3 times for half an hour after you voting. You cast your vote on a PC and at the end the voting software shows you a QR code. You can then use an app on your phone provided by the government to check who your vote was counted for.

Re: In Estonian parliamentary election, 44% of the votes were cast online

#136

Post by antris » Mon, Mar 11, 2019, 9:40 AM UTC

Essentially, Estonia gives 44% influence of their country to a system that cannot be verified to have almost any relation to what people actually have voted for. The people have will just look at the results and have to think "well, I hope weren't hacked this time" and move on.

Rest in peace, democracy in Estonia.

Re: In Estonian parliamentary election, 44% of the votes were cast online

#137

Post by isostatic » Mon, Mar 11, 2019, 9:44 AM UTC

Mirioron wrote: post #135

Iv wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Typically, the way this is done is through a smartcard, secured and provided by state officials. A vote has to be signed by the key that never leaves this device. So even if you computer is infected by malware down to its USB firmware, it won't be able to fake many things. Just prevent you from voting. My main criticism is that as it is it could still feed the card with the wrong vote to sign. The (state-provided) US…

> My main criticism is that as it is it could still feed the card with the wrong vote to sign. The (state-provided) USB reader should have a small lcd screen to sum up the thing being signed "Vote for Ms.Ryjavik on election #123" "Vote for Yes on vote #432" and a confirmation button. You can check who you cast your vote for through online voting. You can do it 3 times for half an hour after you voting. You cast your…

So much for a secret ballot

Re: In Estonian parliamentary election, 44% of the votes were cast online

#138

Post by antris » Mon, Mar 11, 2019, 9:44 AM UTC

mamon wrote: post #117

emerongi wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Half-facetious. If a government really wants to hold on to power by force, they can do it one way or another - elections end up being theatre in that case anyways.

Except in Soviet Union terrorizing all the opposition parties/majority of voters was long, costly and brutal process. Online voting makes the whole thing cheap, easy, and undetectable.

And they got caught. Everyone knew the elections were rigged. With electronic vote you can get away with the crime and nobody's wiser.

Re: In Estonian parliamentary election, 44% of the votes were cast online

#139

Post by dekrg » Mon, Mar 11, 2019, 9:48 AM UTC

antris wrote: post #136

Essentially, Estonia gives 44% influence of their country to a system that cannot be verified to have almost any relation to what people actually have voted for. The people have will just look at the results and have to think "well, I hope weren't hacked this time" and move on. Rest in peace, democracy in Estonia.

>The people have will just look at the results and have to think "well, I hope weren't hacked this time" and move on.

Well, no they the main proponents of e-voting figured a long time ago that it's easier to eliminate those concerns using propaganda. For example if you are against e-voting media will brand you as a backwards russkie who hates Estonia.

Re: In Estonian parliamentary election, 44% of the votes were cast online

#140

Post by antris » Mon, Mar 11, 2019, 9:49 AM UTC

JDiculous wrote: post #128

All these "e-voting can never work" comments just scream ludditism. Estonia has already demonstrated that it works, we have online banking and cryptocurrencies worth billions of dollars in market cap, and people want to say it's not possible. Yeah, ok. Feel free to express your views, but don't pretend to represent the software engineering community.

Online banking and cryptocurrencies are not equivalent technologies. Just because you can solve those problems with software doesn't mean you can solve every problem in the world with software.