Live data from Hacker News

China orders its airlines to suspend use of Boeing 737 Max aircraft

reuters.com

11–20 of 212 posts

Re: China orders its airlines to suspend use of Boeing 737 Max aircraft

#11

The article implies that this is the Chinese government's way of signalling itself as a separate world aviation safety authority besides the FAA. Morbid as it is to think about, they're now postured in a position to benefit if another 737 Max goes down anywhere in the world.

If any other country ground 737s it's better for safety concerns. But if it's China, it must be political motivated.

Re: China orders its airlines to suspend use of Boeing 737 Max aircraft

#12
post #4

The article implies that this is the Chinese government's way of signalling itself as a separate world aviation safety authority besides the FAA. Morbid as it is to think about, they're now postured in a position to benefit if another 737 Max goes down anywhere in the world.

Good political move, but that doesn't preclude it from being a smart move - as far as I've read so far, the conditions (weather, airline quality, etc) make this completely unexpected. Is implausible to believe that the FAA may be leaned on to suppress news that may damage Boeing, especially with the current administration, and the current slate of news coming out of Canada's shenanigans with the SNC?

The FAA doesn't operate on altruism. They were quite happy to take money from and do work for Southwest during Trump's last shutdown. And regarding the MAX, the FAA happily buried any mention of MCAS (while the Brazilian authorities wisely thought it was significant enough to document in the differences training).

Re: China orders its airlines to suspend use of Boeing 737 Max aircraft

#13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Chinese government is also a competitor to Boeing (Comac and AVIC). Seems difficult to believe China can provide truly independent oversight over certifying airplane or engine products designed by their own government.

Sure but let's flip this. If the US started using China's first exported passenger plane and it went down twice in six months in similar circumstances, we would absolutely be doing the same thing.

How do you know that? Are you a person at FAA responsible for these decisions and protocols?

Re: China orders its airlines to suspend use of Boeing 737 Max aircraft

#14

The article implies that this is the Chinese government's way of signalling itself as a separate world aviation safety authority besides the FAA. Morbid as it is to think about, they're now postured in a position to benefit if another 737 Max goes down anywhere in the world.

The Chinese government is also a competitor to Boeing (Comac and AVIC). Seems difficult to believe China can provide truly independent oversight over certifying airplane or engine products designed by their own government.

Please read the article below taking about MCAS, which is the prime suspect, and tell me if you still think that it’s a political move from the Chinese to ground them, or quite the opposite, a political move from the western world to keep them flying.

https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-safety/what-is-the-boeing...

Re: China orders its airlines to suspend use of Boeing 737 Max aircraft

#15
People seem to think this is a political move by the China, which may be true, but this is actually what they're supposed to do. According to the article, 96 737 MAX jets are operated by Chinese airlines, and the aircraft appears to be racking up a questionable safety record.

I wouldn't put faith in the FAA to be beyond political influence and crack down on an American manufacturer quickly.

Lauda Air flight 004 [0] crashed in 1991 after inadvertent thrust reverser deployment mid-flight, which were not secured with positive locks since Boeing deemed this to be impossible. The FAA accepted Boeing's tests at face value. Regardless, Boeing insisted this would be a survivable event - it wasn't until Niki Lauda (airline's founder) insisted Boeing issue a statement to the contrary or to perform a test flight with him and two pilots attempting a deliberate reverse thrust deployment mid-flight. Boeing relented and acknowledged the defect.

The more groups looking at aviation safety, the better.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauda_Air_Flight_004

Re: China orders its airlines to suspend use of Boeing 737 Max aircraft

#16
I'm disappointed that the FAA hasn't done this. The FAA seems to be adopting Gollum's "I'm not listening" stance. There is historical precedent for the FAA suspending a type certificate. This happened after a DC-10 crash in 1979.[1]

The facts are that the Indonesia crash just 5 months ago killed 189 people; this latest Ethiopia crash just killed 157 people. That's way too many dead people for a plane that has only been shipping since 2017, with less than 350 aircraft in service.

Maybe it's a coincidence. Maybe the Ethiopian carrier has a bad rep for pushing pilots beyond prudent flying limits. But maybe there's something wrong with the plane!

The first crash was IMO almost 100% on Boeing. They significantly changed the operating behavior of the aircraft and didn't prominently publicize that.

I hope there won't be a third crash anytime soon. Right now if I were Boeing I'd be 100% in emergency design review mode. How would you like to be an engineer at Boeing right now? 346 people are dead. Is it something you did or failed to do? Did you fuck up what was a relatively minor re-design of a plane that started flying 52 years ago?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Airlines_Flight_191

Re: China orders its airlines to suspend use of Boeing 737 Max aircraft

#17
From the New York Times at https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/10/business/boeing-737-max-8...:

> On a commercial level, China’s aviation sector could actually benefit from the tragedies in Indonesia and Ethiopia. A government-owned company in Shanghai has begun doing flight tests of a Chinese-made alternative to the Boeing 737, called the Comac C919. The C919 is the cornerstone of China’s effort to build a commercial aviation competitor to Boeing and Airbus.

It's worth noting that a) the C919 program has been severely troubled, and b) this hasn't stopped the Chinese government from arm-twisting Chinese airlines into over 1000 (!) orders. The original plan was for entry into service by 2014; as of now, they're still refining prototypes for test flights and the current goal of 2021 looks optimistic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comac_C919#2018

Comac's other airliner, the ARJ21 regional jet, is (barely) in service but is not faring much better: "Initial operational feedback of aircraft was rather poor. The biggest issue was inability of the aircraft to land on wet runways."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comac_ARJ21

...and per FlightRadar24, sole customer Chengdu Airlines is no longer flying its ARJ21s:

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/airlines/eu-uea/fleet

Re: China orders its airlines to suspend use of Boeing 737 Max aircraft

#18

People seem to think this is a political move by the China, which may be true, but this is actually what they're supposed to do. According to the article, 96 737 MAX jets are operated by Chinese airlines, and the aircraft appears to be racking up a questionable safety record. I wouldn't put faith in the FAA to be beyond political influence and crack down on an American manufacturer quickly. Lauda Air flight 004 [0] c…

>I wouldn't put faith in the FAA to be beyond political influence and crack down on an American manufacturer quickly.

I would. The FAA grounded the Boeing 787 after some widely publicized battery fires: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_787_Dreamliner_battery_.... I would assume that they would do the same thing here, if this also turned out to be a widespread issue not related to aircraft maintenance or pilot training.

Re: China orders its airlines to suspend use of Boeing 737 Max aircraft

#19
The FAA has issued a similar suspension before: with the DC-10.

Mustard — The DC-10 Story: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-085TjhUPo

Aviation Regulation Agencies will ideally put safety first, and it is a shame that the 737 MAX is either unlucky to be involved in 2 deadly incidents or it does have a design flaw that should be revised.

Post reply on HN