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Winding down my Debian involvement

michael.stapelberg.ch

71–80 of 238 posts

Re: Winding down my Debian involvement

#72
According to my 10 years of Linux experience I can say: community Linux distributions sucks. 'Cause it's funny when you can upload a couple of packages and not funny when you need to debug installer or understand why it doesn't work under upgrade. When you do this professionally, your salary is the great motivator.

Re: Winding down my Debian involvement

#73
The Arch User Repository (https://aur.archlinux.org/) seems to solve a lot of the collaboration issues. It is pretty painless to create PKGBUILD files to make a package and to upload a new one to the AUR. Most maintainers read the comments and accept patches on a timely manner, and there's even a way to forcibly relinquish a package if a maintainer is AWOL for significant time.

On the other side of the spectrum, I've found that the official binary repositories for Arch Linux suffer many of the same issues described in the article for Debian. Patches being ignored and collaboration or involvement being near impossible. Even worse, the few people in charge of the official repositories are allowed to basically remove packages from the AUR with no interaction with the AUR maintainer, for the purpose of "promoting" them to the official repositories. This has happened to me twice, and it resulted in what I think is a worse package in one of those cases.

Re: Winding down my Debian involvement

#74
Sad to see it takes this to raise such issues.

It’s hard to make a change on the inside when so many people’s lives depend on not making that change.

Maybe Debian needs to go through a OpenWRT/LEDE split. That was over a lot of resistence to change and general bureaucracy. In the end, they merged back after fixing the biggest problems.

Re: Winding down my Debian involvement

#76

I've been using Debian for over 10 years and I still love it as a user. But as a developer, I find it extremely frustrating. I've several times attempted to figure out how to package my open-source projects [1] [2] for Debian but the process is a nightmare. As I understand it, I first have to find someone with appropriate privileges to mentor me. I should be able to just submit a potential package for review. Then th…

I had this exact same problem and also gave up. It was absurd. The amount of friction in contributing to Debian is enormous.

And, at the risk of upsetting people.. it is time to move away from mailing lists, especially for submitting bugs and managing packages.

Re: Winding down my Debian involvement

#77
post #46

Instead, currently, all packages become lint-unclean, all maintainers need to read up on what the new thing is, how it might break, whether/how it affects them, manually run some tests, and finally decide to opt in. This causes a lot of overhead and manually executed mechanical changes across packages. I always wondered if Debian/Ubuntu could benefit from a "monorepo". It seems to work for other distributions, e.g. A…

Likewise for the BSD ports.

There are advantages to both ways. However, a single repository permits changes to multiple packages in a single change. In Debian, simple transitions which affect multiple packages can take months or even years to fully propagate through the entire system. Not due to technical difficulty, but the logistics of coordinating the change.

Debian's approach made sense at the time. Developers who were widely distributed, communicating sporadically using dial-up internet connections, needed to be able to work independently and changes which had wide-ranging effects needed discussion and coordination. Nowadays, that can happen on a single merge request on GitLab. Homebrew can do such changes in a single pull request.

Re: Winding down my Debian involvement

#78

I've been using Debian for over 10 years and I still love it as a user. But as a developer, I find it extremely frustrating. I've several times attempted to figure out how to package my open-source projects [1] [2] for Debian but the process is a nightmare. As I understand it, I first have to find someone with appropriate privileges to mentor me. I should be able to just submit a potential package for review. Then th…

My experience trying to update a package was similar. I use Ubuntu so I had the extra friction of using their Launchpad service first, then being told to go-to the Debian lists instead.

Re: Winding down my Debian involvement

#79
post #21
post #7

Personally, I'm annoyed at Debian still not having a Web frontend for bug filing. Practically all other distros have some kind of issue tracker site that allows filing bugs through it. Using reportbug or e-mail feels way less comfortable in comparison.

Better have fewer high quality bug reports than more low quality reports. The latter just teaches you to ignore them.

It's not just about "low quality" bug reports. The entire system is baroque and messy to use even for experts. I've been using it for 2+ decades now.

As a maintainer, I frequently needed to change bug tickets. Tags, versions, dependencies, and other details. All need doing through the control@ email interface. Changes can take over half an hour to be processed and acknowledged. It's inefficient and tedious, and prone to error if there's a single typo. While I'm not a fan of web interfaces, bugzilla, JIRA, gitlab issues etc. are all a world more effective and efficient to use.

The Debian BTS does what it does well. However, the other systems all do a much better job. The Debian BTS is a couple of decades past its prime. Nowadays we don't need email interfaces to services like this, we have much simpler and more immediate ways to talk to services, which are even easier to script for non-interactive use.

Take a typical interaction. I need to respond to a ticket I didn't originally file or get CC'd on. With any other system, I'd log in, find the ticket, make a comment and any metadata changes, and press "submit". With the Debian BTS, I need to find the ticket, download the mbox mailbox by hand and open that in a mail client by hand, then find and reply to the relevant message(s) and make any other needed changes using the control interface. It takes much longer, and it wastes huge quantities of valuable time. It is not a pleasure to use.

I can not understate what a huge time sink it is to use the Debian BTS to work with dozens of tickets every day. It's an exercise in frustration.

Re: Winding down my Debian involvement

#80
post #76

I've been using Debian for over 10 years and I still love it as a user. But as a developer, I find it extremely frustrating. I've several times attempted to figure out how to package my open-source projects [1] [2] for Debian but the process is a nightmare. As I understand it, I first have to find someone with appropriate privileges to mentor me. I should be able to just submit a potential package for review. Then th…

I had this exact same problem and also gave up. It was absurd. The amount of friction in contributing to Debian is enormous. And, at the risk of upsetting people.. it is time to move away from mailing lists, especially for submitting bugs and managing packages.

Debian hasn't used mailing lists for reporting bugs since the 90s: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debbugs
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