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Ask HN: Any web startups using Java?

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Re: Ask HN: Any web startups using Java?

#141
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're harder to deploy than PHP but easier to deploy than Rails, in my experience, depending heavily on how experienced you are at administering systems and how much Java enterprise coffee you want to drink. Have you tried Phusion Passenger ( http://www.modrails.com/ )? It is trivial to install and makes Rails deployment a snap.

Also Capistrano ( http://www.capify.org/ ) for deploy new changes is really easy.

I had Java project that was deployed using Capistrano. Great thing. :)

Re: Ask HN: Any web startups using Java?

#142
post #29

We are a London Startup, mainly building products off the back of web crawling & data mining, using Java for all our development, whether web or server-side. As our web framework we use Tapestry5, which is a great framework, with fast development times & minimal coding (Howard Lewis Ship has really put a lot of thought into the development of the T5 framework). Server side our crawl infrastructure, and other applicat…

Funny that you mention Tapestry 5 and Howard Lewis Ship. I was recently looking for a fast, stateless, Java based web framework (I liked Stripes, but eventually had to settle for Spring). I came across this SO question: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1303438/why-did-you-stop-...

Why did you stop using Tapestry? Because Howard Lewis Ship is a liar. Lots of reasons but the main one was breaking compatibility between v3 and v4. Just when we solved all those issues v5 came out and broke backwards compatibility again! Just couldn't go through that again.

Ideally, I would like to have a lean version of maven+jetty+spring to implement a web framework.. which should also be deployable to more heavyweight containers like JBoss. I havent figured this part out. Maybe Stripes is the way.

Re: Ask HN: Any web startups using Java?

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Java for most startups won't be Java EE. My best experience with Java recently has been with Jetty as an application server. It's fast and it's lightweight. I usually run Jetty behind nginx and don't generally need to configure Jetty to do anything. The whole Tomcat and connectors for apache configuration from a few years ago is well and truly behind me.

I think one major difference/hurdle of java web development and deployment is the fact that you HAVE to setup something like nginx in front of the app server or else you're working on port 8080 for everything. Or you have to know how to configure the app server for port 80 directly and mitigate the security concerns of doing so. By comparison, apache defaults to port 80, no tricks required.

changing the port of an app/web server z no big deal..if u really wanna deploy something.

Re: Ask HN: Any web startups using Java?

#144
post #40
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are lots of great frameworks for ColdFusion/Railo.

ColdFusion is not associated with fun development, may be I'm wrong, but for me it is associated with plenty of config xmls and other enterpricy stuff.

Been using CF for 10 years, Java for 5. CF is a great bridge from the functionality and performance of Java with the ease and natural fit of a loosely typed language when building for the web.

CF and it's community is not the same beast it used to be, I would encourage you and others to take a second look.

Re: Ask HN: Any web startups using Java?

#145
post #85

My startup http://www.onmydoorstep.com.au/ is Java/Wicket/Guice/Lucene based. Java's greatest strength is it's speed, a dearth of open-source libraries for pretty much anything you'd need. It's very possible to write light-weight simple code, if you shift out of the enterprise mind-set.

I think you meant a wealth of open-source libraries. There certainly isn't a shortage.

Damn, you're right. I must have been thinking about Star Wars.

Re: Ask HN: Any web startups using Java?

#146
I built Klicktrack based on Java and it's a great platform for a startup especially for larger teams. The only drawback I can think of is the compile deploy cycle which can be a bit annoying compared to scripting languages but it can be mitigated.

Re: Ask HN: Any web startups using Java?

#147
post #29

We are a London Startup, mainly building products off the back of web crawling & data mining, using Java for all our development, whether web or server-side. As our web framework we use Tapestry5, which is a great framework, with fast development times & minimal coding (Howard Lewis Ship has really put a lot of thought into the development of the T5 framework). Server side our crawl infrastructure, and other applicat…

Funny that you mention Tapestry 5 and Howard Lewis Ship. I was recently looking for a fast, stateless, Java based web framework (I liked Stripes, but eventually had to settle for Spring). I came across this SO question: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1303438/why-did-you-stop-... Why did you stop using Tapestry? Because Howard Lewis Ship is a liar. Lots of reasons but the main one was breaking compatibility betwee…

Yes, I am explicitly talking about T5. The SO post refers to T4 and below, although I gather the upgrade path 3 -> 4 -> 5 was non-existant and so pissed some people off (understandably). I guess Howard was trying to just create something better...

Re: Ask HN: Any web startups using Java?

#149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're a Java house and just launched http://www.jigsawbox.com using the Play Framework ( http://www.playframework.org/ ). Play is seriously, seriously good. We used to build on top of a fairly heavy but powerful stack of Spring, Hibernate and Struts2/Wicket (depending on the app). Although there's a lot of power there there's also a lot of tangled XML and you need to do a fair amount of gymnastics to get through it a…

Not sure Play will scale using Excepitons for flow management.

It does scale, believe me. In order to scale you have to be able to load balance to accommodate a higher load.

Using exceptions for flow management doesn't prevent you from adding more boxes. If you're thinking it can cause performances problems, I have an app in prod; here are some numbers: * With a single box, we can do about 500 req/s for a dynamic page, accessing the database * It appears that the bottleneck is the template engine. If we cache the result (thus serving a "pseudo static" page) the exceptions-based control flow is still there but we serve up to 1000 req/s. (That's more than Apache can do to serve static content on the same machine).

So yes, Play does scale!

Re: Ask HN: Any web startups using Java?

#150
I was in a startup that built a MySQL/Spring/Wicket app, and I'm building a Mongo/Play one right now. So, point by point:

1) Java isn't amenable to pre-installed hosting like PHP is. You usually deal with machine images that you have to prepare yourself. Jetty 7 + Nginx is the going coin, it's quick and easy

2) Java is outright the best performing language of the ones currently used for web development with any degree of frequency (PHP, Python and Ruby being the other ones I'd mention). There's 10+ years of optimization and garbage collection research in those VM's, and language is statically typed, which increases verbosity yes, but also performance

3) If you extend the view beyond start-ups, Java isn't just getting used - the world runs on it. If it's a web app of any meaningful size, there's a 90%+ it's written or getting written in Java. The only other language that has this wide an acceptance level is PHP, which is a different animal entirely. Not to disrespect RoR or Django, but their overall share of the web development market is negligible

Keeping in mind the bias that comes from 12+ years of dealing in Java, here's a quick pro-con for what it's worth:

pro => - Java is fast. Very fast - Tool support is unrivaled. It's hard to appreciate what an IDE can do to speed up your work until you've gotten your first couple dozen IntelliJ keystrokes in the muscle memory. RoR is not faster to write than Java (a frequent claim) - Library support is unrivaled as well. Whatever it is, there's already a library for it, usually quite well-documented, and most questions that come up are googlable on the spot (something I sorely miss when I have to work Rails on occasion) - with the entry of Play, speed and ease of web development is approaching dynamic languages: write, hit reload, be done - knowledge and people to hire are available widely - the JVM is also home to Scala and Clojure. Starting in Java and moving to Scala is a pattern these days

con => - it's wordy and, compared to, say, Ruby or Scala, downright ugly. Not a big deal as far as start-up success is concerned, mostly a hacker bragging right. Nothing wrong with bragging as long as it doesn't get in the way of getting stuff done - generics and collection syntax is unwieldy. IDE support takes care of some of that, but not all - there's arcane stuff one needs to get used to - a learning curve of sorts. Again, mitigated by the widely available documentation and Google support

hope this helps.

- z

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