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CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

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Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if you don't believe this (I think Jordan Peterson, who is fond of it, is a charlatan but not at all an anti-Semite), the term obviously occludes more than it clarifies, and was deliberately coined as a powerful negative emotional appeal; the choice to include it in a CERN physics workshop presentation is telling.

"Cultural Marxism" is neither about culture nor about Marxism. The term was coined by anti-Semite William Lind in a speech at a 2002 Holocaust denial conference: https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/intelligence-report/... The fact that Peterson adopted the term does not necessarily imply that Peterson is an anti-Semite, but it definitely confirms that he is an idiot who cannot even be bothered to do basic researc…

I do agree it's important to basic research on the things one likes to rant about. Wikipedia in contemporary usage has become completely useless for controversial or social topics, but it used to be a reasonable source of information. This [1] is an archive of the Wiki page on Cultural Marxism providing some broad information and background. Suffice to say it was not coined in 2002 by anybody.

[1] - https://archive.fo/YzkIS

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#262
post #201
post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what I find frustrating in this discussion is that people don't like to think in term of distributions. The 78k female aren't less capable in any way than the 120k males, there is just fewer of them. But then a journalist will summarize that as "women scoring less than males in math at SAT". And then we go into a sterile flame war of blanket statements about gender, etc. The debate on the Damore memo in that resp…

As a mathematical comment, if these are two distributions are gaussians, and one has 120k above some cutoff, the other 78k, then the distributions above this cutoff are not the same. They will typically have slightly different means (not far above the cutoff) and quite strongly different tails.

Right, but if you define the skill as "good enough", i.e. score of 700 and above, then my point stands.

My point is really that individuals aren't defined by the distribution, just the number of individuals is defined by the distribution. But many people take these distributions personally.

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#263
post #71
post #16

[flagged]

Could you please not post in the flamewar style to Hacker News? Your comment starts off ok (edit: well, half ok—it's snarky, which also breaks the guidelines) but the orgy of name-calling and flamebait it ends with is just what the guidelines ask us all to avoid here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html You have a good point and it's vaguely discernible through the smoke, but good points don't matter whe…

Yes, I got a little carried away, the subject matter gets me frothing at the mouth a little :) I'll avoid the (admittedly rare) fiercely political submissions to HN in future!

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#264
post #6

I am reminded of Larry Summers, then the head of Harvard, who said something similar: https://www.theguardian.com/science/2005/jan/18/educationsge... I think that previously there was a distinct issue with not enough women going through the degree programs. If the degree programs are 80% men and 20% women, statistically the men will outperform the women in outlier achievements just because there will likely be more p…

>What about this comment is causing this to be downvoted?

Well

> If the degree programs are 80% men and 20% women, statistically the men will outperform the women in outlier achievements just because there will likely be more positive outliers in the larger group by definition even if the means are similar.

This would predict 20% of outliers would be women. However this is not the case. A reasonable hypothesis to account for the gap in yoyr reasoning is that higher male variance in intelligence drives more male outliers in physics. I find your explanation for the lack of representiation of women to be comparatively unsatisying.

Now there is a better counterargument from the world of Chess. Chess has similar controversies about Men saying things about women having lower potential. Well a father didn't buy the nature based arguments decided to prove child rearing played a huge role in success and taught his daughters how to play chess. One of his daughters became arguably the greatest women player of all time although she wasn't ever considered world champion material.

Essentially though thia case may indicates its differences in early childhood rearing that causes the differentials. It's not participation in a specific educational stream that's the issue its girls being brought up in a fundamentally different way from how boys are in general. Yet I see much of the comtemporary political discussion focus on higher educational and workforce equity. Really groundbreaking physics tends to be discovered by younger physicists so if education is truly the problem this is waiting too long to address any potential childrearing problem.

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#265
post #196
post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think those people are wrong, especially if there are male refuges available. Personally I think they are right, _especially_ if there are no male refuges available. Which according to my cursory glances seems to be the case, at least in London[0]. [0]: https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/there-are-no-male-safe...

You've failed to show whether there are any government funded domestic violence shelters for women in London. And reading your link it seems the government funding is clearly for both men and women: > “Tackling domestic violence is a key priority in the Mayor’s Policing and Crime Plan. He has provided £2 million of funding for the Pan London Domestic Abuse Service – the biggest of its kind in London – which is open t…

I wasn't aware that we had specified the criteria as being government run, because of course refuges are operating as independent charities...

I thought it was about government _funded_ refuges?

In July of 2018, while under austerity, the government gave 19M GBP to various charities who support domestic abuse survivors.[0]

Curiously, zero of those charities allow men to enter their shelters.[1][2]

[0]: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/19-million-fund-to-suppor...

[1]: https://localgiving.org/charity/safenet/project/janes-place/

[2]: http://www.cih.org/resources/PDF/presentations/arch2015/1Vic...

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#266
post #41

From the particlesforjustice link: " As an example of the inappropriateness of citations as a metric, almost 1/3 of Strumia's citations come from being one of thousands of authors on the CMS Higgs discovery paper, to which we can safely conclude that his contribution (as a theoretical associate in an experimental collaboration) was modest. Hundreds more citations come from papers about the statistically insignificant…

And yet even if you throw out half his citations, he would still have over 3x as many as the woman who was hired over him.

He has 21,000 citations.

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Alessandro_Strumia

The woman who was hired has 3000.

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Anna_Ceresole

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do racists and misogynists have to do with anything being discussed? See, you’re doing it too. Maybe one day you can consider accepting the possibility that a non-racist, non-misogynist might wonder if race or sex can influence general outcomes in a given domain! Personally, I find the idea that it can only influence athletic performance (which I understand is a difference that polite society allows us to acknow…

He didn't call you a racist or a misogynist, or even Strumia (though I'll say it: Strumia is a misogynist). He simply pointed out that the basic mechanisms of scientific discussion have been abused to push dumb ideas in the past, which is obviously true. That is in fact a flaw in your argument. You're the one getting triggered here.

Do you know Strumia personally well enough to say what you said, or have you just bought into a smear campaign against him?

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#268

I'm nearly 50 and decided some years ago that life was just too short to bother accommodating people who are assholes. Perhaps he's brilliant, but there's quite a lot of brilliant people around and if there's a discovery just waiting to be made it's more likely that someone else will do than that the opportunity to make it will be lost forever. I'm not arguing that everyone has to hold the same views, but if your nee…

So you've decided he's an asshole? On what grounds? The mere willingness to challenge the political status quo and call out discrimination against men where he sees it?

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#269

>> He also showed cartoons deriding women campaigning for equality in science and presented the results of an analysis that he claimed showed that work conducted by female physicists was not as good as their male counterparts. My underlined sentence, is most likely the reason Cern considered that Alessandro Strumia's actions would bring disrepute to the Centre. Holding and publicly discussing controversial views is o…

That's an excellent point that reminds me of the article that was recently on Hacker News: Our Culture of Contempt.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/02/opinion/sunday/political-...

He could have handled this more professionally. But at the risk of committing a "motive attribution error" myself, it seems clear that that standard is being selectively applied; even the CERN staff who filmed a fake human sacrifice and released the video to the public were never publicly outted.

If Strumia were wrong, he would be no threat. He'd just be ignored or disproven. He's dangerous because he's speaking an inconvenient truth, and thus a real threat to certain people's agenda, and so he must be silenced and publicly excoriated, pour encourager les autres.

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#270

>> He also showed cartoons deriding women campaigning for equality in science and presented the results of an analysis that he claimed showed that work conducted by female physicists was not as good as their male counterparts. My underlined sentence, is most likely the reason Cern considered that Alessandro Strumia's actions would bring disrepute to the Centre. Holding and publicly discussing controversial views is o…

That's an excellent point that reminds me of the article that was recently on Hacker News: Our Culture of Contempt. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/02/opinion/sunday/political-... He could have handled this more professionally. But at the risk of committing a "motive attribution error" myself, it seems clear that that standard is being selectively applied; even the CERN staff who filmed a fake human sacrifice and rel…

The general problem is that in academia the administrations are too large and staffed with the wrong people who have to fight these battles in order to justify their existence.

Human groups always degrade into Animal Farm (obviously with varying degrees of severity), where a caste of administrators rules the productive class.

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