Ask HN: How to speak like a leader, not like an engineer? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: How to speak like a leader, not like an engineer?

#111

Post by School-Cotton » Sun, Mar 10, 2019, 7:37 AM UTC

borski wrote: post #74

warent wrote: post #53

Leadership is basically just people-engineering and business-engineering. Engineers use tools to build products, and so do leaders. The immediate assumption is that people are tools/resources to build the product. That's talking like an engineer. Don't use your team to work on a project/product. Use the project to work on your team. They're not there to build the product. They're there to gain some personal fulfillme…

People often say to me “it must be nice not to have a boss.” I explain to them that I have no idea what that’s like, since I have 12 or 13 bosses. My job is to empower my reports to do their best work, using empathy and engineering the team as a well-oiled system. Sure, they report to me, but my job is to keep them productive.

Sorry if I sound harsh but I disagree extremely strongly with this. If you are evaluating someone's work and you can fire them, then you are their boss.

There is a trend of calling managers "supporters" where I work, and I absolutely can't stand it. It seriously reminds me of "War is Peace" from 1984. I don't mind having a boss; hierarchies are fine. But I feel extremely patronized and condescended to when people try to pretend they don't exist.

> my job is to keep them productive

Well, you could say the same thing about a manager at Wal-Mart or McDonald's. Their job is to make sure their underlings are productive. "Empower my reports too do their best work" is just an unusually nice way to put it.

The thing that sounds nice to most people about not having a boss is exactly that: nobody that you feel is judging whether you are productive.

Re: Ask HN: How to speak like a leader, not like an engineer?

#112

Post by known » Sun, Mar 10, 2019, 7:48 AM UTC

Talk like https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sales_engineering

Re: Ask HN: How to speak like a leader, not like an engineer?

#113

Post by bwaine » Sun, Mar 10, 2019, 7:50 AM UTC

A lot has already been said in the thread about identifying, aligning with and assisting in achieving your organisations goals. I'd also add part of "speaking like a leader" is speaking in a persuasive manner, convincing other in helping with the above.

I found "Thank You For Arguing" by Jay Heinrichs a really good introduction to this.

Re: Ask HN: How to speak like a leader, not like an engineer?

#114

Post by dgzl » Sun, Mar 10, 2019, 8:03 AM UTC

In University, I would see this message written on one of the college's best Electrical Engineer professors' office door:

"Efficiency with machines, effectiveness with humans"

It's a powerful idea, and I think the point is obvious.

Re: Ask HN: How to speak like a leader, not like an engineer?

#115

Post by digitalengineer » Sun, Mar 10, 2019, 8:05 AM UTC

Here’s a good summary from ‘Career Warfare’ about how you are being perceived by your manager/boss and what they need. https://www.slideshare.net/happysammy/career-warfare

Re: Ask HN: How to speak like a leader, not like an engineer?

#116

Post by fsloth » Sun, Mar 10, 2019, 8:09 AM UTC

Actually rhetoric is one of the things Aristotle still has valuable things to say.

Basically all the rhetoric books I've read (not that many, not an expert) are just expanding and giving examples to Aristotles "Rhetoric".

The modern english translations are quite readable and the concepts are straightforward. They circle around the concepts of ethos, pathos and logos. I.e. you must convince the audience you are worth listening to, then you must appeal to both of their feelings and logic.

This means various things, including toning your message depending on the audience. And, even engineers are affected by emotions, you just need to find the right context :)

Re: Ask HN: How to speak like a leader, not like an engineer?

#117

Post by mduerksen » Sun, Mar 10, 2019, 8:24 AM UTC

This is certainly only one small aspect, but: Don't upspeak. [1]

It's one example for non-verbal behavior that impacts the perception of your stance and status.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_rising_terminal

Re: Ask HN: How to speak like a leader, not like an engineer?

#118

Post by suff » Sun, Mar 10, 2019, 8:34 AM UTC

School-Cotton wrote: post #111

borski wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People often say to me “it must be nice not to have a boss.” I explain to them that I have no idea what that’s like, since I have 12 or 13 bosses. My job is to empower my reports to do their best work, using empathy and engineering the team as a well-oiled system. Sure, they report to me, but my job is to keep them productive.

Sorry if I sound harsh but I disagree extremely strongly with this. If you are evaluating someone's work and you can fire them, then you are their boss. There is a trend of calling managers "supporters" where I work, and I absolutely can't stand it. It seriously reminds me of "War is Peace" from 1984. I don't mind having a boss; hierarchies are fine. But I feel extremely patronized and condescended to when people try…

Another way to put it is building a culture that helps everyone perform better. There are conscious levers that conscious managers can pull to make sure his happen. Have you ever worked in an environment where managers created conflicting goals or perverse incentives? Did that help teamwork, or create frustration? Do frustrated teams perform at their best? How many people have you managed?

Re: Ask HN: How to speak like a leader, not like an engineer?

#119

Post by burlesona » Sun, Mar 10, 2019, 8:35 AM UTC

AlexTWithBeard wrote: post #61

Engineer: we can get to the town by bus, by car or by train. Each mode of transportation has it's pluses and minuses. Specifically, bus is cheaper.... Leader: guys, we need to get to the town and we're taking the train, unless right now I hear an extremely convincing reason not to.

Or when reporting status up the chain, simply: “we’re on schedule to arrive in town, estimated time is between 4 and 6pm.”

Side note, one key to estimating is to start with a realistic and wide window which you regularly update and gradually narrow as you get closer to done. Being able to give forecasts that other people can count on is a big deal.

Re: Ask HN: How to speak like a leader, not like an engineer?

#120

Post by TeMPOraL » Sun, Mar 10, 2019, 8:39 AM UTC

School-Cotton wrote: post #111

borski wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People often say to me “it must be nice not to have a boss.” I explain to them that I have no idea what that’s like, since I have 12 or 13 bosses. My job is to empower my reports to do their best work, using empathy and engineering the team as a well-oiled system. Sure, they report to me, but my job is to keep them productive.

Sorry if I sound harsh but I disagree extremely strongly with this. If you are evaluating someone's work and you can fire them, then you are their boss. There is a trend of calling managers "supporters" where I work, and I absolutely can't stand it. It seriously reminds me of "War is Peace" from 1984. I don't mind having a boss; hierarchies are fine. But I feel extremely patronized and condescended to when people try…

Maybe this should really be split up? Managers should be relegated to their stated role - being servants and shit umbrellas, not bosses. And since there is a need for a boss over a team, why not create a second job type, Commissar, whose job is to evaluate performance of the underlings and fire underperformers?