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If Lyft can't keep its drivers as contractors, it may never be profitable

latimes.com

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Re: If Lyft can't keep its drivers as contractors, it may never be profitable

#81

Post by michaelmrose »

freefal wrote: post #38
newprint wrote: post #7

I'm kind of torn on this. My father has been truck driver his entire life and for the last 20 years worked as a contractor, while driving his own truck and trailer, since it gives him more $$$ than average driver who works as employee. However, he has non-existent social net. No health insurance, no pension benefits. If he out of work or has serious health issues that ground him for months, he has to dig into savings…

On the plus side, can't an independent truck driver or an Uber/Lyft driver claim tax deductions for all business-related expenses? From talking to a couple Uber drivers, my sense it that many are aggressive with the definition of "business-related" and deduct most of all their expenses. Appreciating the downsides (need to provide for one's own health insurance and retirement) I don't often see this increase net pay d…

The only way you deduct most of your expenses is to lie on your taxes and risk prison. Your friends are probably either exaggerating or criminals of the white collar variety.

Furthermore say you are able to deduct $100 from your taxable income that you would have paid $30 taxes on you have saved the $30 not the $100 a tax deduction is a reduction on the amount taxed not in most cases free money remitted to the taxpayer.

Most peoples expenses are heavily weighted towards, food medical, savings, living space. Whatever they can deduct will be a small portion of their overall expenses.

So in turn you don't see this increase in net pay discussed because

A) Its not an increase in pay its a tax deduction

B) Its a small benefit that is absolutely dwarfed by the additional tax burdens + medical expenses.

In short its not discussed because its imaginary.

Re: If Lyft can't keep its drivers as contractors, it may never be profitable

#82

Post by michaelmrose »

denormalfloat wrote: post #23
newprint wrote: post #7

I'm kind of torn on this. My father has been truck driver his entire life and for the last 20 years worked as a contractor, while driving his own truck and trailer, since it gives him more $$$ than average driver who works as employee. However, he has non-existent social net. No health insurance, no pension benefits. If he out of work or has serious health issues that ground him for months, he has to dig into savings…

How much help did he earn? How much does he deserve? The money a driver gets paid is the help. There is a market for non-fulltime jobs that would not exist at all if it was forced to be full time. Forcing Lyft to hire employees instead of contractors won't mean there will be more workers with a safety-net; it means there won't be any Lyft. That would be bad for both drivers and the people being driven.

Since lyft operates at a loss by convincing morons to keep flushing money I'm not sure Lyft or Uber has any long term future of any variety.

Re: If Lyft can't keep its drivers as contractors, it may never be profitable

#83

Post by michaelmrose »

jackschultz wrote: post #6

Anyone else see these and think about how maybe there should be some other type of worker other than employee or contractor? Those are hard definitions, and creating laws to reflect this type of worker is incredibly difficult considering people and companies figure out loopholes, but really feels like there should be another category to go with this type of work that's going to become more and more common.

Maybe employees with all of the costs and none of the benefits of being independent just shouldn't be a category?

Why is it a given that its going to be more common or shall I say allowed to become more common.

Crack would be more common if we didn't keep locking up dealers.

Re: If Lyft can't keep its drivers as contractors, it may never be profitable

#84

Post by jeffrey_garand »

StudentStuff wrote: post #54
ams6110 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's his cost. The employer is probably paying twice that much more behind the scenes. Money they could otherwise be paying him.

Money spent on healthcare for employees is untaxed, effectively a 30% bonus.

This isn't standard worldwide. In Canada, health, dental, and other benefits are considered taxable.

Re: If Lyft can't keep its drivers as contractors, it may never be profitable

#85

Post by denormalfloat »

michaelmrose wrote: post #82
denormalfloat wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much help did he earn? How much does he deserve? The money a driver gets paid is the help. There is a market for non-fulltime jobs that would not exist at all if it was forced to be full time. Forcing Lyft to hire employees instead of contractors won't mean there will be more workers with a safety-net; it means there won't be any Lyft. That would be bad for both drivers and the people being driven.

Since lyft operates at a loss by convincing morons to keep flushing money I'm not sure Lyft or Uber has any long term future of any variety.

Calling drivers morons is not helpful. Realistically, there is no way for me to make money between now and the 2 hours before bedtime. Lyft (and Uber) provide a way for me to work that extra few hours if I want to, which I previously couldn't.

Re: If Lyft can't keep its drivers as contractors, it may never be profitable

#86

Post by michaelmrose »

denormalfloat wrote: post #85
michaelmrose wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since lyft operates at a loss by convincing morons to keep flushing money I'm not sure Lyft or Uber has any long term future of any variety.

Calling drivers morons is not helpful. Realistically, there is no way for me to make money between now and the 2 hours before bedtime. Lyft (and Uber) provide a way for me to work that extra few hours if I want to, which I previously couldn't.

In case it wasn't clear I meant investors.

Re: If Lyft can't keep its drivers as contractors, it may never be profitable

#87

Post by denormalfloat »

zbentley wrote: post #32
denormalfloat wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much help did he earn? How much does he deserve? The money a driver gets paid is the help. There is a market for non-fulltime jobs that would not exist at all if it was forced to be full time. Forcing Lyft to hire employees instead of contractors won't mean there will be more workers with a safety-net; it means there won't be any Lyft. That would be bad for both drivers and the people being driven.

> How much help did he earn? How much does he deserve? The money a driver gets paid is the help. That seems naïve and inhumane. Compensation and benefits are understood to be separate things in the US at this time. From social security to health insurance, the costs of securing such things without an employer (an entity on the other side of the wealth gap, usually) are often untenable. > Forcing Lyft to hire employee…

How could that be inhumane? The worker and the payer agree ahead of time how much is to be paid and what goods and services are delivered. Both parties have to agree, or else one will walk away. You say it's inhumane because one party didn't get something (healthcare) from the other? How is that fair to the other person? I'm asking if the deal was agreed to by consenting parties, nothing more.

Re: If Lyft can't keep its drivers as contractors, it may never be profitable

#88

Post by TylerE »

michaelmrose wrote: post #79
ohaideredevs wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would be very interested in the details. I keep hearing about friends of friends who pull $80,000 driving a truck, $120,000 when they own one and half a mil once they own a couple. Too lazy to actually do the research, but curious how close these claims are to the truth. Obviously you are seeing a very different picture, and yours actually comes from experience.

Maybe they are quoting the money coming in before expenses like gas/lease etc? Maybe they put it an above average investment of time?

Actually, time is pretty strictly regulated by the DOT. No more than 60 hours duty hours a week, no more than 14 duty hours in a row, of which no more than 11 hours can be actually driving, and must go off duty for at least 10 hours to reset the clock.

Sounds more complicated than it is... once the duty period begins, any stops (fuel, breaks, meals, etc) do NOT stop the clock.

This is why most long-haul operations use pairs of drivers... one will sleep in the bunk while the other drives.

Re: If Lyft can't keep its drivers as contractors, it may never be profitable

#89

Post by TylerE »

godzillabrennus wrote: post #5

Self driving cars would change the economics and create profitability in the markets it’s a viable solution within. All ride sharing companies have the same problem.

This always seemed obvious to me that this was the play - that the initial gig economy period was just a stop gap to gain market share (at a heavy loss) until self-driving tech became available.

That has proven to be a much slower process than they probably expected.

Re: If Lyft can't keep its drivers as contractors, it may never be profitable

#90

Post by cinquemb »

baby wrote: post #66
RHSeeger wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “How much does he deserve”. Welcome to America. I'm assuming there's sarcasm in that statement. However... > My father has been truck driver his entire life and for the last 20 years worked as a contractor, while driving his own truck and trailer, since it gives him more $$$ than average driver who works as employee. One of the primary reasons one makes more as a contractor is because the company isn't paying for t…

We have the same stuff in France. You lose on benefits as a contractor. But you do not lose on healthcare. That’s a basic human right.

I wonder what happens when basic human rights can no longer be paid for with hypothetical future cash flows… future gillets jeunes to be mown down by domestic metadata drone strikes under emergency powers acts when they try to demand for their basic rights?
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