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SpaceX Crew Dragon Splashes Down After Historic Test Flight

scientificamerican.com

141–150 of 152 posts

Re: SpaceX Crew Dragon Splashes Down After Historic Test Flight

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are unlikely to do this at this point. The big problem is that while the capsule will be reusable, since NASA killed the propulsive landing for Dragon 2, it now needs to splash down in saltwater and therefore is not considered safe for humans after the first use. This makes Dragon 2:s too expensive for large-scale space tourism. Unless there is suddenly a huge market for this, I think SpaceX would prefer to sell…

Incidentally why does NASA prefer splashing down in the water, rather than a soft landing in dry land like the Russians do?

Dragon 2/ Crew Dragon originally was going to support propulsive landing, but nixed due to future architectural plans (making some of Dragon a bit of engineering dead-end versus Starship/ BFR) and complexities in certifying for NASA use.

The Soyuz fires retro-rockets just before landing in Kazakhstan to lessen the impact. Even with that, the landing is still pretty rough. Land landings are sometimes described as akin to a car crash - water landings are softer. I'm sure there's probably a contingency capability of being able to support a land landing for Crew Dragon in case of aborts.

Interesting history note: there was an actually a concern during some of the early Apollo flights (I'm specifically thinking of Apollo 7) of land landings during an abort. Apollo 7 used a Block II version of the Command Module, however the crew couches were still the Block I variant. There was evidence showing the couches wouldn't perform well during a land landing. The concern was that if the LES was used, winds could force the capsule to a land landing. The resolution was that wind speed was a factor in a GO decision for launch.

It's interesting to note that Starliner is planned to perform land landings (using airbags). Land landings for capsules have been worked on since the 60s with the Gemini initially having plans for a Rogallo wing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogallo_wing#/media/File:Gemin...). There were even plans for re-use of the Gemini capsule! Water landings quickly ended that discussion, since salt water is pretty terrible and corrosive.

Re: SpaceX Crew Dragon Splashes Down After Historic Test Flight

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I understand it, originally SpaceX was planning on using propulsive landing with side-mounted thrusters and legs coming through the heatshield (i.e. what was planned for Dragon 2) on Mars, so they were developing the technology with that end in mind. Once they decided to go straight to Starship/BFR with the movable 'wings' and raptor engines on the bottom and cancelled the dragon missions to Mars, there was less r…

Cargo Dragon will give them the chance to experiment with refinements to the parachute and rockets for zero risk. There should be no reason why they can't do Soyuz style rocket assist landings.

Expense. NASA won’t pay for it and SpaceX is focused on Starship.

Re: SpaceX Crew Dragon Splashes Down After Historic Test Flight

#143
post #15
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why did they force the requirement for saltwater splashdown?

IIRC they were concerned about having retractable legs beneath the heat shield so in terms of complexity the water landing is safer.

No, that’s not it. The Shuttle had them and the engineering is easy. NASA was wary of the safety of propulsive landings and the time/cost to approve them would have been too much.

Re: SpaceX Crew Dragon Splashes Down After Historic Test Flight

#144
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Incidentally why does NASA prefer splashing down in the water, rather than a soft landing in dry land like the Russians do?

Dragon 2/ Crew Dragon originally was going to support propulsive landing, but nixed due to future architectural plans (making some of Dragon a bit of engineering dead-end versus Starship/ BFR) and complexities in certifying for NASA use. The Soyuz fires retro-rockets just before landing in Kazakhstan to lessen the impact. Even with that, the landing is still pretty rough. Land landings are sometimes described as akin…

Water landings have their peculiar risks also, I think there was some incident in Mercury program when Gus Grissom's craft got flooded after splashdown.

Re: SpaceX Crew Dragon Splashes Down After Historic Test Flight

#145

SpaceX is an antidote to the idea that home food delivery is great innovation. It’s a beacon to nerds everywhere. You may not be able to build a space company, but spend at least some of your time and skills doing things that are truly new .

Space is cooler than home deliveries, but pretty much all economic evolution comes from ordinary things getting much cheaper, not crazy things becoming possible but still absurdely expensive.

Re: SpaceX Crew Dragon Splashes Down After Historic Test Flight

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The vomit-comet ICBM video? I'm a big fan of SpaceX, but I think they'll get to Mars before governments on Earth allow that concept to happen. Your passengers do multiple g's to altitude, then go weightless, then go back to taking g-forces on descent. That's the vomit part. Not a great customer experience. Meanwhile, the Starship looks like an ICBM to every early warning radar on the planet. It's only during reentry…

Ok, I did some rough math. The W88 has a diameter of 55cm, a length of 175cm, and a blast yield of 475 kilotons. The unpressurized cargo hold of the Starship per Wikipedia is 88m^3, and the diameter of the vehicle is 9m. Let's assume that the unpressurized cargo hold is a cylinder 9m in diameter with a length of 9m. It looks like a hold of that size could fit 15 units per 200cm length, or 60 units, with space for str…

Isn't the same math applicable to a jumbo jet? Or a container ship?

Re: SpaceX Crew Dragon Splashes Down After Historic Test Flight

#147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, I did some rough math. The W88 has a diameter of 55cm, a length of 175cm, and a blast yield of 475 kilotons. The unpressurized cargo hold of the Starship per Wikipedia is 88m^3, and the diameter of the vehicle is 9m. Let's assume that the unpressurized cargo hold is a cylinder 9m in diameter with a length of 9m. It looks like a hold of that size could fit 15 units per 200cm length, or 60 units, with space for str…

Isn't the same math applicable to a jumbo jet? Or a container ship?

Certainly, but neither a jumbo jet nor a container ship has a 30 minute delivery time, and presumably that many warheads has a significant radiation signature.

Re: SpaceX Crew Dragon Splashes Down After Historic Test Flight

#148
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, I did some rough math. The W88 has a diameter of 55cm, a length of 175cm, and a blast yield of 475 kilotons. The unpressurized cargo hold of the Starship per Wikipedia is 88m^3, and the diameter of the vehicle is 9m. Let's assume that the unpressurized cargo hold is a cylinder 9m in diameter with a length of 9m. It looks like a hold of that size could fit 15 units per 200cm length, or 60 units, with space for str…

Or they have ability to strike back no matter what.

Maybe, but if governments of the world decide to treat every Starship launch as a potential ICBM, wouldn't it be cheaper and easier to just deny landing rights entirely?

A sky full of friendly traffic makes the hostile traffic more difficult to spot, after all.

Re: SpaceX Crew Dragon Splashes Down After Historic Test Flight

#149
post #81

So I'm a fan of spacex in the sense that they're taking an atraditional approach to space exploration and colonization. However, our current ride to space has been operating reliably since 1978, we've been building and sending large space stations up since the early 70s. Spacex only very recently got their closed cycle engine working, the pinnacle of rocket efficiency, catching up to, again, early 1970s Russian techn…

I like how you list all these things and entirely leave out the landing an orbital class rocket, which no private company nor governmental agency has ever done. They're also pretty much doing it all themselves for a fraction of the price due to vertical integration, which is also unique. Raptor is a full-flow staged combustion engine. Others have been made, yes, but none have flown. Right now Raptor is the only metha…

SpaceX has rekindled my childhood wonder for what we're capable of; for our ability to precipitate the greatest collective achievements of evolved primates from intangible dreams and relentless determination. I fear my initial post here betrayed my true intention as a simple reality check on our path to a grander future.

Credit where credit is due; landing an orbital booster should be lauded as a fantastic engineering achievement. Fingers crossed this is a step towards interplanetary exploration (a la that one episode of Stark Trek Enterprise). The flight we're currently celebrating is again a fantastical achievement for the sheer logistics involved. All I'm saying is this is technology (so far that's what it is) is still on its way to make tangible changes in our species' exploration beyond earth's orbit and I have a few thoughts and concerns as follows -

1) We've currently matched the performance of the RD-180 on a test stand, where they left off. Arguably this is part of the structure to achieve interplanetary whatever. (we're in 1970 with more advanced materials)

2) I'm extremely wary of the bias towards automation. As a robotics engineer by training and profession I've seen firsthand complications arising from the over reliance of machines and contemporary bias against human capabilities . If the full-flow combustion engine removes barriers to a interplanetary future this, I perceive this developmental philosophy is a setback to those efforts carrying catastrophic potential. We set up the entire Gemini Project to prove we could achieve milestones in orbit (an entire space program) and we still encountered number of issues in the subsequent ventures.

3) Every large-scale space project has been beset, often bested, by dramatic technological failures. Are engineers now somehow more capable then our forefathers? If not, we should expect massive setbacks in achieving truly novel accomplishment and I pray that the good men and women at SpaceX helming this burgeoning revolution overcome them. My fear is private enterprise without government support carries its own risks.

4) The space Shuttle program faced a dearth of expertise resulting from Apollo engineers retiring or otherwise. Poor documentation had us rebuilding lots of technology from scratch. Simply another barrier to overcome in progress.

Finally, what the heck do I know? I'm nothing more than an armchair observer and now a faceless internet pundit. As a somewhat technical Lazy-Boy inhabitant I'm simply voicing my thoughts in the hopes of a rewarding discussion.

-Brandon

Re: SpaceX Crew Dragon Splashes Down After Historic Test Flight

#150
post #81

So I'm a fan of spacex in the sense that they're taking an atraditional approach to space exploration and colonization. However, our current ride to space has been operating reliably since 1978, we've been building and sending large space stations up since the early 70s. Spacex only very recently got their closed cycle engine working, the pinnacle of rocket efficiency, catching up to, again, early 1970s Russian techn…

> Spacex only very recently got their closed cycle engine working, the pinnacle of rocket efficiency, catching up to, again, early 1970s Russian technology. The Raptor is the first functional full-flow staged-combustion methalox engine, and it's already been successfully fired. By some measures, that surpasses both Soyuz technology and the RS-25. Of course, we have yet to see what their true Isp and T/M numbers will…

How exciting will this be?
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