The ‘Mad Genius’ Mystery • Hacker News Board

Re: The ‘Mad Genius’ Mystery

#11

Post by GuiA » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 5:40 PM UTC

blfr wrote: post #7

GuiA wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don’t you think that we got things like women’s suffrage, paid vacations, democracy, public healthcare, free public education, modern medicine, engineering, etc precisely because idealists can have an impact?

"Women’s suffrage, paid vacations, democracy, public healthcare, free public education" are just results of societies getting richer. Luxuries that become affordable for regular people. There has been some idealism in tech, and I don't mean just modern tech, even long before the first flight, but you can't say that it's wasn't also being beaten into place.

If it’s just the result of societies getting richer, then why doesn’t a rich society like the USA have free higher public education/healthcare like most wealthy countries (that are yet less wealthy than the USA), or why doesn’t the UAE have a democracy?

And if being rich isn’t enough but it also requires the will of some people to push these ideas through and realize them, then wouldn’t you call those people... idealists?

If not, I’d love to hear what definition of “idealist” people are using in this thread, because it just sounds like a no true Scotsman argument.

Re: The ‘Mad Genius’ Mystery

#12

Post by GuiA » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 5:48 PM UTC

ianai wrote: post #8

GuiA wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don’t you think that we got things like women’s suffrage, paid vacations, democracy, public healthcare, free public education, modern medicine, engineering, etc precisely because idealists can have an impact?

Much of what you said doesn’t have idealistic roots. Democracy is by nature pragmatic, for instance. Engineers and physicians will generally employ whatever tool works best as well.

> Engineers and physicians will generally employ whatever tool works best as well.

That’s a common myth amongst people who fetishize “science”. Boltzmann committed suicide over the pushback on how outlandish his theory of the atom was. Ignaz Semmelweis was ignored and ridiculed when he pushed for surgeons to wash their hands before operations and finished his life in an asylum.

Engineers and physicians will only employ whatever tool works best as long as it fits their conception of the world and what is socially acceptable at the time.

As far as claiming that democracy is by nature pragmatic, that’s a statement that’s going to need a lot of arguments to support it, in a time where many support eg China’s communist party as an example of “pragmatic” government.

Re: The ‘Mad Genius’ Mystery

#13

Post by nilskidoo » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 6:25 PM UTC

GuiA wrote: post #6

cryptica wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Age beats idealism into place. This is true. Also, it's practically impossible for idealistic people to make an impact in this world. Nobody who has power trusts idealists because they are difficult to predict and impossible to control. You can't just throw money at an idealist to keep them in line with your financial interests; they are unreliable cogs in the engines of capitalism. Those who succeed in this socie…

Don’t you think that we got things like women’s suffrage, paid vacations, democracy, public healthcare, free public education, modern medicine, engineering, etc precisely because idealists can have an impact?

I would argue that every one of these things came into existence not by the benevolence or common sense of idealists, but because somebody somewhere saw a chance to profit, like keeping workers satisfied just enough to distract them from tossing monkey-wrenches, etc. How great is public healthcare when it amounts to 2/3 of the population being over-medicated? Or public education, when so much of it boils down to indoctrination? I can't help but to see paint-jobs over catch-22s everywhere.

Re: The ‘Mad Genius’ Mystery

#14

Post by blfr » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 6:25 PM UTC

GuiA wrote: post #11

blfr wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Women’s suffrage, paid vacations, democracy, public healthcare, free public education" are just results of societies getting richer. Luxuries that become affordable for regular people. There has been some idealism in tech, and I don't mean just modern tech, even long before the first flight, but you can't say that it's wasn't also being beaten into place.

If it’s just the result of societies getting richer, then why doesn’t a rich society like the USA have free higher public education/healthcare like most wealthy countries (that are yet less wealthy than the USA), or why doesn’t the UAE have a democracy? And if being rich isn’t enough but it also requires the will of some people to push these ideas through and realize them, then wouldn’t you call those people... ideal…

Why don't all rich people own luxury cars? Yet many do obviously because they're rich.

And US has free, universal healthcare. Hospitals cannot turn anyone away. Its financing is pretty nutty so there's definitely some path dependence.

Re: The ‘Mad Genius’ Mystery

#15

Post by keithpeter » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 6:42 PM UTC

Isaac Newton was doing chemistry with a range of nasty heavy metals for years. A sample of his hair was analysed some time ago and found to contain significant levels of lead [1].

Boyle, Cavendish and their cohorts investigated a variety of sources and were not empiricists in the modern sense. Remember that they had e.g. no concept of yeast, bacteria, and yet saw the daily baking of bread and brewing of beer. Not surprising perhaps that they saw similar processes in the chemical realm? A flavour of the times slightly earlier can be seen in the use of astrology for medical purposes [2]

[1] https://web.pa.msu.edu/courses/2008spring/ISP213H/welcome/we...

[2] http://theshakespeareblog.com/2014/06/shakespeare-and-the-al...

Re: The ‘Mad Genius’ Mystery

#16

Post by jonhendry18 » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 9:10 PM UTC

ianai wrote: post #8

GuiA wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don’t you think that we got things like women’s suffrage, paid vacations, democracy, public healthcare, free public education, modern medicine, engineering, etc precisely because idealists can have an impact?

Much of what you said doesn’t have idealistic roots. Democracy is by nature pragmatic, for instance. Engineers and physicians will generally employ whatever tool works best as well.

"Much of what you said doesn’t have idealistic roots. Democracy is by nature pragmatic, for instance"

Democracy looked a lot more idealistic and less pragmatic when the mainstream thing was kings and whatnot. When you are ruled by an absolute monarch, the pragmatic thing is to try to work within that system.

Re: The ‘Mad Genius’ Mystery

#17

Post by cryptica » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 11:09 PM UTC

GuiA wrote: post #12

ianai wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much of what you said doesn’t have idealistic roots. Democracy is by nature pragmatic, for instance. Engineers and physicians will generally employ whatever tool works best as well.

> Engineers and physicians will generally employ whatever tool works best as well. That’s a common myth amongst people who fetishize “science”. Boltzmann committed suicide over the pushback on how outlandish his theory of the atom was. Ignaz Semmelweis was ignored and ridiculed when he pushed for surgeons to wash their hands before operations and finished his life in an asylum. Engineers and physicians will only empl…

It's refreshing to hear this point of view with some notable cases to back it up.

I'm tired of hearing people saying how efficient the markets are and how great the system is at rewarding talent and hard work and all that "you make your own luck" bullshit. History books are littered with examples of mathematicians, scientists and engineers who were being ignored or ridiculed for purely social reasons.

In fact, it almost seems to be the norm. It shows just how stupid we all are and that we all ought to eat humble pie.

When we come up with new laws and regulations, we should always factor in our collective stupidity.

I don't think we can say that markets are objectively efficient when a bunch of monkeys operating under shared social delusions get to set the price of all things based on those delusions.

Re: The ‘Mad Genius’ Mystery

#18

Post by apocalypstyx » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 11:36 PM UTC

blfr wrote: post #14

GuiA wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it’s just the result of societies getting richer, then why doesn’t a rich society like the USA have free higher public education/healthcare like most wealthy countries (that are yet less wealthy than the USA), or why doesn’t the UAE have a democracy? And if being rich isn’t enough but it also requires the will of some people to push these ideas through and realize them, then wouldn’t you call those people... ideal…

Why don't all rich people own luxury cars? Yet many do obviously because they're rich. And US has free, universal healthcare. Hospitals cannot turn anyone away. Its financing is pretty nutty so there's definitely some path dependence.

Emergency rooms are only required to treat immediate life-threatening conditions, that is, so long as someone is breathing enough and keeping enough blood inside to remain somewhat conscience as they're wheeled out or propped in the parking lot, they've fulfilled their obligation under the law. And then there is what exactly counts as an emergency. Things not categorized as emergencies: death from rattle snake bites, death by rabies (both very painfully). And all of that is only if it's actually enforced[1][2].

[1] https://journalofethics.ama-assn.org/article/refusal-emergen...

[2] https://www.propublica.org/article/despite-federal-law-some-...

Re: The ‘Mad Genius’ Mystery

#19

Post by cryptica » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 11:42 PM UTC

nilskidoo wrote: post #13

GuiA wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don’t you think that we got things like women’s suffrage, paid vacations, democracy, public healthcare, free public education, modern medicine, engineering, etc precisely because idealists can have an impact?

I would argue that every one of these things came into existence not by the benevolence or common sense of idealists, but because somebody somewhere saw a chance to profit, like keeping workers satisfied just enough to distract them from tossing monkey-wrenches, etc. How great is public healthcare when it amounts to 2/3 of the population being over-medicated? Or public education, when so much of it boils down to indo…

Yes exactly. If billionaires could abolish weekends and public holidays without risking a massive backlash, they would take it all away in a heartbeat. They would lobby to reinstate slavery if it would give them a risk-free competitive edge.

The only thing that these people cannot moralize is the stock price going sown.