CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia • Hacker News Board

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#121

Post by paganel » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 9:41 PM UTC

jmole wrote: post #82

bhouston wrote: post #6

I am reminded of Larry Summers, then the head of Harvard, who said something similar: https://www.theguardian.com/science/2005/jan/18/educationsge... I think that previously there was a distinct issue with not enough women going through the degree programs. If the degree programs are 80% men and 20% women, statistically the men will outperform the women in outlier achievements just because there will likely be more p…

I've been reading recently about a structural/sociocultural/technological phenomenon that's actually holding women back in a field where women tend to dominate in representation at the academic level, but are regularly outcompeted by men at the professional level. Piano playing. It all comes down to the shape of the instrument, and hand-span, which is unquestionably (and uncontroversially) larger in men than in women…

This could go the other way, like you might be seen as saying that women don't have hand-spans as big as men, meaning that they're not as good as men when it comes to their physical capabilities and as such "providing" them with smaller pianos might be looked at as "demeaning" towards said women (you're thinking about them as not being as good as men are). Gender politics can be fun like that.

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#122

Post by iguy » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 9:43 PM UTC

pygy_ wrote: post #113

There's no doubt Strumia did a dumb, and while he may kind of have a point regarding the variability hypothesis, there's actually more to it. It comes down to chromosomes. XY individuals have a single X chromosome while XX individuals have two (duh). The X and Y chromosomes have a small section that pairs one another (the pseudo-homologous region), but most of their chromatin is different. The Y is mostly made of gen…

> In birds, the variance for body size is larger in females.

Do you have a reference for this? I would be surprised, as I thought the explanation for variance was not about chromosomes, but about investment... but I don't actually know if that's true, and birds (WW/WZ as you say) or reptiles (temperature) would be interesting examples.

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#123

Post by _red » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 9:51 PM UTC

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #116

tptacek wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last September, Professor Strumia stated that “physics was invented and built by men, it's not by invitation" at a presentation at the Cern the workshop. He also showed cartoons deriding women campaigning for equality in science and presented the results of an analysis that he claimed showed that work conducted by female physicists was not as good as their male counterparts. Did Larry Summers do anything as overt as…

Thanks for posting this. I remember in great detail what happened when Summers was essentially sacked from Harvard, and I thought it did a great disservice to the institution. He was presenting the mere idea, at an academic conference, that innate differences in gender could account for some of the difference in academic achievement in various fields is something that should be studied , and he was pilloried for it.…

As an aside. Are you posting via a throwaway because: (a) You worry about HN attacking you with downvotes, or (b) You have a somewhat publicly identifiable username and worry this type of wrongthink could be punished by the modern-stasi movement?

(my money is on B).

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#124

Post by netsharc » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 9:54 PM UTC

sonnyblarney wrote: post #88

tptacek wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a formal presentation at a CERN workshop that invokes "Cultural Marxism". CERN had to apologize for the presentation after the workshop. Of course they're pissed.

They had to apologize because some people were going to be offended, surely, it doesn't mean the presentation is intellectually offensive. 'PR' is different than 'Science'. 'Cultural Marxism' is just a popular term for Intersectionalism, and it's a real issue, particularly on campus. People should be able to talk about issues that are a little bit uncomfortable.

Seems like he'd be free to talk about his theories in an anthropology conference 1), but the presentation had no place in a physics research centre.

1) although it seems the sloppy research would've not been accepted by anthropology experts - just because he's a good physicist doesn't mean he's a good anthropologist, indeed he's not realised that he let his biases lead him to arguments made out of confirmation bias.

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#125

Post by mamon » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 9:55 PM UTC

paganel wrote: post #121

jmole wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been reading recently about a structural/sociocultural/technological phenomenon that's actually holding women back in a field where women tend to dominate in representation at the academic level, but are regularly outcompeted by men at the professional level. Piano playing. It all comes down to the shape of the instrument, and hand-span, which is unquestionably (and uncontroversially) larger in men than in women…

This could go the other way, like you might be seen as saying that women don't have hand-spans as big as men, meaning that they're not as good as men when it comes to their physical capabilities and as such "providing" them with smaller pianos might be looked at as "demeaning" towards said women (you're thinking about them as not being as good as men are). Gender politics can be fun like that.

So producing shoes or coat's in women sizes is also "demeaning" towards women? I can't imagine why producing smaller pianos would be any different.

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#126

Post by ThomPete » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 9:55 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #104

ThomPete wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CERNs apology is just a consequence of that presentation not an actual argument against it.

I'm not at all sure what your argument is here. Strumia clearly did mislead CERN and the workshop organizers, pretty clearly gave a presentation to troll the workshop, and clearly launched an attack on another scientist (present at the workshop) during his presentation. Is your argument that someone should have been able to give a contrarian presentation about gender disparities in physics at this workshop? I agree w…

Which illustrates the fundamental issue here.

This was not something that came from within, this was forced from the outside namely the media, in this case, BBC which made it politically problematic for CERN.

If a woman or man had launched an attack on the problems of being a woman in a male-dominated field nothing would have happened, in fact, he or she would have been applauded for speaking truth to power and celebrated for their courage they certainly wouldn't have ended up being called sexist or wouldn't have their ties cut.

You might as well chose to read him in the same manner, he certainly did think of himself as someone who spoke truth to power.

And it certainly wasn't something that was a bigger problem than someone could say. "What an idiot" and then move on.

But no, this had to be a question of sexism even though he was talking about discrimination against men.

This has James Damore deja vu all over it.

The code of Conduct hail mary is an excuse which is why their apology is not an argument it highlights the very problem.

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#127

Post by cotelletta » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 9:56 PM UTC

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #116

tptacek wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last September, Professor Strumia stated that “physics was invented and built by men, it's not by invitation" at a presentation at the Cern the workshop. He also showed cartoons deriding women campaigning for equality in science and presented the results of an analysis that he claimed showed that work conducted by female physicists was not as good as their male counterparts. Did Larry Summers do anything as overt as…

Thanks for posting this. I remember in great detail what happened when Summers was essentially sacked from Harvard, and I thought it did a great disservice to the institution. He was presenting the mere idea, at an academic conference, that innate differences in gender could account for some of the difference in academic achievement in various fields is something that should be studied , and he was pilloried for it.…

Where is the utmost sensitivity when people like James Damore are derided as "tech bros" and worse? White male tears? Mansplaining?

Face it, tech feminists only want others to be sensitive to their own needs, not to bring greater sensitivity. This guy is voicing his lived experience, speaking from his intersectional perspective as a male scientist... And it falls on deaf ears because all that rhetoric was only ever meant to justify the narcissism of some identity grifters.

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#128

Post by PostOnce » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 9:59 PM UTC

I went into this leaning towards "they probably are mistreating the guy", but nope, dude's... wrong, manipulative, a liar to further his own goals?

The guy quotes the Istanbul Convention, article 4, as being

"Discriminations against men 'shall not be considered discrimination'"

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/01A6/production/...

But what it actually says is

"Special measures that are necessary to prevent and protect women from gender-based violence shall not be considered discrimination under the terms of this Convention."

https://www.coe.int/en/web/conventions/full-list/-/conventio...

So I don't know how much deeper I need to dig in light of this to figure out this guy was probably justly dismissed and will lie to and attempt to manipulate the media in his favor, given his obviously intentional misquoting the above. This doesn't further any cause of men's rights or anything, if anything it harms it.

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#129

Post by YeGoblynQueenne » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 10:03 PM UTC

lgleason wrote: post #115

I wonder what would have happened if he had done a presentation in favor of the current favored political/pseudo religious orthodoxy with bad/inaccurate poorly done data. We will never know but, I'll bet you not much would have been said about it. I'm not in the field, but from everything I've read the rest of his work is some of the top in the field. So we un-person this individual and start to dis-credit his work,…

>> So we un-person this individual and start to dis-credit his work, not based on its merit, but because of the creators "moral character".

There was no "un-person" ing and no dis-crediting of his work. He was dismissed from his position at CERN. His work is not retracted and he will continue to publish.

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#130

Post by titanix2 » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 10:05 PM UTC

OldFatCactus wrote: post #119

lgleason wrote: post #115

I wonder what would have happened if he had done a presentation in favor of the current favored political/pseudo religious orthodoxy with bad/inaccurate poorly done data. We will never know but, I'll bet you not much would have been said about it. I'm not in the field, but from everything I've read the rest of his work is some of the top in the field. So we un-person this individual and start to dis-credit his work,…

Lol Firstly, the guy isn't qualified to make such a sweeping statement about the opposite sex. So before we even step into the problems with why it's a dumb idea to say such things, lets just make it clear that he's a physicist and not an anthropologist, biologist, or sociologist. We definitely care about his moral character, but it's also just flat out incredibly naive to discredit women in his field when they've be…

It is comments like yours that is currently fuelling the ‘diversity’ meme pushback. You are denying someone the right to express facts just because of its gender and divergent political opinion. The guy is a physicist, he is way more qualified than any sociologist to deal with statistics.

Your position is not only ridiculous virtue signaling but you are also creating a scary world where the messenger is more important than the message.