CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia • Hacker News Board

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#91

Post by sonnyblarney » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 7:17 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #86

sonnyblarney wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Click the link below and have a look at the cartoon in question. Though I can realize how some might be offended, it's not an offensive cartoon. Or rather - the 'offensiveness of the cartoon' is only a function of one's sensitivity to intersectional issues. So any cartoon/animation that is 'against' the intersectional view will be regarded as 'offensive'. The very fact that this cartoon could be regarded as 'offensiv…

Your rebuttal is tautological; you're essentially saying "this presentation was only offensive to people who were offended by it". Well, sure. A gauge for how offended people were by it: CERN immediately apologized and ultimately fired Strumia for it. I don't know how "offensive" I find it, and I'm not a physicist, but I try to put myself in the shoes of a physicist attending a workshop at CERN when someone gets up o…

"A gauge for how offended people were by it: CERN immediately apologized and ultimately fired Strumia for it."

That's a measure of how afraid CERN is of the reaction to it. It's a matter of PR and has nothing to do with Science.

Anyone who's offended by some data in slides might consider not being a scientist. Or rather just easily debunking it if that's the case.

The data in the presentation is uncomfortable, and maybe it's all utterly misrepresented, but these things have a place in polite society.

Finally, here's this juicy tidbit: he's making a case that men are discriminated against in Science. He's given many examples. Then - he's fired right away for highlighting the fact that he's ostensibly being discriminated against? I wonder if that makes a sneaky, upside down lawsuit.

I don't think CERN is the place for any of this, but there should be a place for it somewhere reasonable where people can talk about reality without losing their jobs.

I don't think we need raging bigots, but we need contrarians.

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#92

Post by tptacek » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 7:18 PM UTC

sonnyblarney wrote: post #88

tptacek wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a formal presentation at a CERN workshop that invokes "Cultural Marxism". CERN had to apologize for the presentation after the workshop. Of course they're pissed.

They had to apologize because some people were going to be offended, surely, it doesn't mean the presentation is intellectually offensive. 'PR' is different than 'Science'. 'Cultural Marxism' is just a popular term for Intersectionalism, and it's a real issue, particularly on campus. People should be able to talk about issues that are a little bit uncomfortable.

He misled CERN to get his talk into the workshop, didn't provide materials a priori, deliberately gave his talk an obscurantist title, and attacked the workshop (and specific individual scientists and organizers) during the presentation. It was a stunt; he played the workshop. Nobody is going to congratulate him for that.

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#93

Post by tptacek » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 7:19 PM UTC

sonnyblarney wrote: post #91

tptacek wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your rebuttal is tautological; you're essentially saying "this presentation was only offensive to people who were offended by it". Well, sure. A gauge for how offended people were by it: CERN immediately apologized and ultimately fired Strumia for it. I don't know how "offensive" I find it, and I'm not a physicist, but I try to put myself in the shoes of a physicist attending a workshop at CERN when someone gets up o…

"A gauge for how offended people were by it: CERN immediately apologized and ultimately fired Strumia for it." That's a measure of how afraid CERN is of the reaction to it. It's a matter of PR and has nothing to do with Science. Anyone who's offended by some data in slides might consider not being a scientist. Or rather just easily debunking it if that's the case. The data in the presentation is uncomfortable, and ma…

Maybe there should be those places, but Strumia is losing this particular role because he chose as his venue a stunt talk at a CERN workshop. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#94

Post by jmole » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 7:22 PM UTC

thaumasiotes wrote: post #89

jmole wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been reading recently about a structural/sociocultural/technological phenomenon that's actually holding women back in a field where women tend to dominate in representation at the academic level, but are regularly outcompeted by men at the professional level. Piano playing. It all comes down to the shape of the instrument, and hand-span, which is unquestionably (and uncontroversially) larger in men than in women…

> The other issue is that these pianos are hard to come by, since almost every manufacturer makes pianos of the same keyboard size, and pianists are one of the few musicians expected to play on whatever instrument they're given. This is a good point, but it seems to be determined by the fundamentals of pianos. Moving a piano is difficult enough that I wouldn't expect this to change. We could all switch to keyboards..…

pianos have had different sized keys throughout history, the recent standardization came about in the early/mid 20th century, and the size that we see today was actually driven mostly by piano companies competing to see who could produce the piano with the loudest, fullest sound.

what you may not know about pianos is that the "action", the keys-and-hammers bit, is a totally separate piece that can be removed in about 3 minutes. Most of the 7/8 keyboards manufactured today are actually just smaller actions that can be swapped into normal sized grands.

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#95

Post by Chris_Chambers » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 7:31 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #86

sonnyblarney wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Click the link below and have a look at the cartoon in question. Though I can realize how some might be offended, it's not an offensive cartoon. Or rather - the 'offensiveness of the cartoon' is only a function of one's sensitivity to intersectional issues. So any cartoon/animation that is 'against' the intersectional view will be regarded as 'offensive'. The very fact that this cartoon could be regarded as 'offensiv…

Your rebuttal is tautological; you're essentially saying "this presentation was only offensive to people who were offended by it". Well, sure. A gauge for how offended people were by it: CERN immediately apologized and ultimately fired Strumia for it. I don't know how "offensive" I find it, and I'm not a physicist, but I try to put myself in the shoes of a physicist attending a workshop at CERN when someone gets up o…

I’m sure he was aware of the reaction he would get, including the firing. Why do you suppose he did it? He could just as easily have shared his views anonymously online to blow off steam and face no consequences. Perhaps he was sickened by CERN’s creepy satanic opening ceremony (and who knows what else has occurred behind closed doors over the years since then), and this spicy de facto resignation was his little way of pushing back against something he felt like he was aiding and abetting against his will in exchange for a paycheck.

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#96

Post by gamblor956 » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 7:36 PM UTC

sonnyblarney wrote: post #78

rjf72 wrote: post #72

For those that would like to see the slides of his talk to judge for themselves they are available here [1]. The slides described as "cartoons deriding women campaigning for equality in science" by the BBC, are 5th and and 2nd from the bottom. [1] - https://drive.google.com/file/d/1c_NyUhOZ8erdqU2AGZJZtNfFeA9...

The BBC's characterization I think is unfair, I suggest HN'ers actually read the presentation. While controversial, I don't think it's poignantly offensive. I'm wary of researchers getting into flame wars and I guess CERN does have the right to avoid such things, at the same time, he seems to be making some points with a lot of data - the best thing someone concerned with opinions could do is actually debunk them ins…

Read the presentation. If anything, BBC's characterization is restrained.

This idiot should have been fired sooner.

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#97

Post by tptacek » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 7:38 PM UTC

geofft wrote: post #61

mpweiher wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They did not. The particlesforjustice is mostly hand-waving and claims about things like implicit bias etc. with little or no empirical support. See https://justiceforstrumia.org for a lengthy and somewhat more substantial rebuttal of the rebuttal.

Thanks, I'm strongly in favor of this debate existing so I'm glad that site exists. As I read it, that site does not rebut any of the claims of particlesforjustice. It attacks a few sources used by particlesforjustice in defense of the claim that discrimination exists in STEM and potentially explains the reason why some groups perform more poorly. Granting, for argument, that those attacks are valid and the sources d…

Just a data point: the authors of ParticlesForJustice are 18 people from the field all with research affiliations, and the cosigners include 491 scientists with university and research lab affiliations --- this doesn't count the (vast) number of "additional signatures", many of which also have university high energy physics affiliations. There are 2x as many signatures on "ParticlesForJustice", and they appear to be of significantly higher quality.

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#98

Post by ThomPete » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 7:45 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #93

sonnyblarney wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"A gauge for how offended people were by it: CERN immediately apologized and ultimately fired Strumia for it." That's a measure of how afraid CERN is of the reaction to it. It's a matter of PR and has nothing to do with Science. Anyone who's offended by some data in slides might consider not being a scientist. Or rather just easily debunking it if that's the case. The data in the presentation is uncomfortable, and ma…

Maybe there should be those places, but Strumia is losing this particular role because he chose as his venue a stunt talk at a CERN workshop. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

What is your base for that conclusion?

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#99

Post by tptacek » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 7:46 PM UTC

ThomPete wrote: post #98

tptacek wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe there should be those places, but Strumia is losing this particular role because he chose as his venue a stunt talk at a CERN workshop. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

What is your base for that conclusion?

The CERN apology, the CERN press release, the CERN email on JusticeForStrumia.com, the ParticlesForJustice page, the title of Strumia's presentation, and the slide in which Strumia complains that he wasn't hired for a role one of the women organizers of the workshop was hired for. Hope that helps!

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#100

Post by tptacek » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 7:52 PM UTC

SiempreViernes wrote: post #54

Udik wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The personal attack (or piece of personal anecdata) in the presentation was certainly condemnable and should have been left out- but let's not pretend the problem wasn't the content of the whole presentation, personal attack or not.

While his whole presentation had serious issues, starting with his misrepresentation of its contents to the organisers, the personal attack is clearly the most important infraction. It is, on its own , enought cause to sanction him as he was.

The JusticeForStrumia page (run by supporters of Strumia) showcases an email from CERN that says exactly this: the personal attack was the major professional problem from the talk.