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Our Culture of Contempt

nytimes.com

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Re: Our Culture of Contempt

#121

Post by towaway1138 »

DanBC wrote: post #96
towaway1138 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the uptick in politically motivated violence on the right I haven't looked closely, but it seems like the preponderance of such violence has been coming from the left these days (ignoring people with obvious mental health problems). Charlottesville is the obvious exception, but clearly overbalanced by the guy that attempted to assassinate a bunch of Congressmen at that ball game. Are there lots of examples I'm miss…

Mental illness doesn't cause violence. The examples you're missing are the mass murders of Jewish people in a synagogue, or people in a church, or people at a concert, or the shooting of a gun into a crowd of protestors, or the driving of a car into a crowd of protestors, or the disproportionate amounts of domestic violence perpetrated by people on the right. Somehow none of these seem to count because reasons, but t…

> Mental illness doesn't cause violence.

??? Reality begs to differ...

Re: Our Culture of Contempt

#122

Post by towaway1138 »

archgoon wrote: post #42
towaway1138 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the uptick in politically motivated violence on the right I haven't looked closely, but it seems like the preponderance of such violence has been coming from the left these days (ignoring people with obvious mental health problems). Charlottesville is the obvious exception, but clearly overbalanced by the guy that attempted to assassinate a bunch of Congressmen at that ball game. Are there lots of examples I'm miss…

Pittsburgh massacre. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/27/us/active-shooter-pittsbu... Also, the bombs sent to a number of democrats, funders of democrats, and Trump critics: https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2018/10/25/bomb-timeli... That said, individual events aren't particularly helpful, the media might be omitting major events (or more likely, a lot of smaller ones). So you can refer to this study by the Cato…

I'd chalk Pittsburgh up to mental illness rather than politics.

The Cato study is interesting, but unfortunately covers a period of decades. I was referring to the last couple of years or so, which unfortunately this does not break out.

Re: Our Culture of Contempt

#123

Post by nilskidoo »

elefanten wrote: post #13

All political mud-slinging aside, all weighing and apportioning of blame withheld, the main suggestions of the article are worthwhile. 1. Don't allow yourself to slide easily or prematurely into contempt. We do it too often these days. 2. Disagree better. You can disagree, but make your case and engage in the responses. Rhetoric has a place but it's being overused.

I agree with this in the same sense that I never agreed with the old adage of opinions being like @$$holes, with everyone having one. There is far too much reaction and repetition, particularly online, for me to believe that everyone actually has an opinion of their own. Political partisanship is brand loyalty is religious zealotry. I feel our culture dissuades too many people from earnestly thinking their beliefs objectively through, "all or nothing" ethos prevailing, which limits our access to healthy debate. Friction is natural. The blacksmith has to hammer a sword into shape before it can effectively do its slicy thing.

Re: Our Culture of Contempt

#124

Post by nilskidoo »

pjc50 wrote: post #108
elefanten wrote: post #13

All political mud-slinging aside, all weighing and apportioning of blame withheld, the main suggestions of the article are worthwhile. 1. Don't allow yourself to slide easily or prematurely into contempt. We do it too often these days. 2. Disagree better. You can disagree, but make your case and engage in the responses. Rhetoric has a place but it's being overused.

There's a real prisoner's dilemma phenomenon going on here. If the two options are "respect" and "contempt", and one side has ramped the contempt up to 11 and won the elections, what should the other side do? I'm all for a winding-down of this process, because eventually it could escalate all the way up to violence, but like nuclear disarmament, you first . Or at least some plausible commitment to de-escalation that…

Great points! And it is curious, in that I was always taught how respect must be earned, yet we give our contempt away so freely. If those are the only options, they are not equal.

Re: Our Culture of Contempt

#125

Post by pjc50 »

towaway1138 wrote: post #122
archgoon wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pittsburgh massacre. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/27/us/active-shooter-pittsbu... Also, the bombs sent to a number of democrats, funders of democrats, and Trump critics: https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2018/10/25/bomb-timeli... That said, individual events aren't particularly helpful, the media might be omitting major events (or more likely, a lot of smaller ones). So you can refer to this study by the Cato…

I'd chalk Pittsburgh up to mental illness rather than politics. The Cato study is interesting, but unfortunately covers a period of decades. I was referring to the last couple of years or so, which unfortunately this does not break out.

There seem to be an awfully large number of mentally ill people who read rightwing material, post on rightwing message boards, and then engage in political murder.

Re: Our Culture of Contempt

#126

Post by Fellshard »

specialist wrote: post #113
Fellshard wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have isolated the voices from the right you listen to to those that allow you to make those claims. Broaden your listening range.

Who should we be listening to?

I've found many of the folks at the National Review, for example, to be quite principled.

Folks like Ben Shapiro wobble a bit in this regard from time to time, but tends to make arguments based on principle and not merely on leadership, and it's safe to say he's got a pretty loud bullhorn right now as well.

Re: Our Culture of Contempt

#127

Post by pjc50 »

towaway1138 wrote: post #121
DanBC wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mental illness doesn't cause violence. The examples you're missing are the mass murders of Jewish people in a synagogue, or people in a church, or people at a concert, or the shooting of a gun into a crowd of protestors, or the driving of a car into a crowd of protestors, or the disproportionate amounts of domestic violence perpetrated by people on the right. Somehow none of these seem to count because reasons, but t…

> Mental illness doesn't cause violence. ??? Reality begs to differ...

Be specific. "Mental illness" is not a good catch-all term for a variety of different conditions. Depression tends to cause violence towards the self - suicide and self-harm - but not violence. What specific mental conditions do you have in mind and how have they been diagnosed in the people under discussion?

Re: Our Culture of Contempt

#128

Post by archgoon »

towaway1138 wrote: post #122
archgoon wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pittsburgh massacre. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/27/us/active-shooter-pittsbu... Also, the bombs sent to a number of democrats, funders of democrats, and Trump critics: https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2018/10/25/bomb-timeli... That said, individual events aren't particularly helpful, the media might be omitting major events (or more likely, a lot of smaller ones). So you can refer to this study by the Cato…

I'd chalk Pittsburgh up to mental illness rather than politics. The Cato study is interesting, but unfortunately covers a period of decades. I was referring to the last couple of years or so, which unfortunately this does not break out.

You must be thinking of the Sutherland Springs Church massacre which did not have a political or racial dimension cited by the shooter.

Mr Bowers, prior to murdering his victims wrote on social media:

"A man with that name had posted anti-Semitic statements on social media before the shooting, expressing anger that a nonprofit Jewish organization in the neighborhood has helped refugees settle in the United States. In what appeared to be his final social media post hours before the attack, the man wrote: “I can’t sit by and watch my people get slaughtered. Screw your optics, I’m going in.”"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2018/10/27/pittsburgh-...

When you justify your actions due to a belief that jews are replacing "your people" you're a right wing nationalist. I am not surprised that ideologies that back this proposition attract crazy people who then commit murder.

Re: Our Culture of Contempt

#129

Post by Fellshard »

pjc50 wrote: post #108
elefanten wrote: post #13

All political mud-slinging aside, all weighing and apportioning of blame withheld, the main suggestions of the article are worthwhile. 1. Don't allow yourself to slide easily or prematurely into contempt. We do it too often these days. 2. Disagree better. You can disagree, but make your case and engage in the responses. Rhetoric has a place but it's being overused.

There's a real prisoner's dilemma phenomenon going on here. If the two options are "respect" and "contempt", and one side has ramped the contempt up to 11 and won the elections, what should the other side do? I'm all for a winding-down of this process, because eventually it could escalate all the way up to violence, but like nuclear disarmament, you first . Or at least some plausible commitment to de-escalation that…

The contempt spiral did not magically start with Trump.

Re: Our Culture of Contempt

#130

Post by DanBC »

RugnirViking wrote: post #117
DanBC wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There just aren't the opinions of suburban moms on twitter. Surburban moms are also nurses, doctors, teachers, engineers, programmers, etc etc, and all of these groups are active on Twitter. But if you want a community of mums who are there as mums you could look at #netmums and #mumsnet. Here's one example: https://twitter.com/search?q=%23netmums&src=typd > There aren't plumbers on twitter. There are plumbers on T…

It's a good point, but I do suspect that if I were to look into it the kinds of people you mention: "nurses, doctors, teachers, engineers, programmers" who are on twitter would actually turn out to have their own blogs or have written a book read by an audience, and would be thought leaders in their field and such folk. Your average member of those classes are likely not regular users of twitter. Twitter just doesn't…

I mentioned nurses because I know there are many UK nurses who use Twitter. The discussions are under hashtags like #wenurse and #wenurses

I agree that discovery is hard for Twitter, but these communities are there.

I use Twitter to talk to people.involved in suicide prevention, safety of MH services, and quality improvement of MH services. It's given me easy access to a bunch of people.

I'd prefer a different platform because Twitter has problems with hostility on top of user unfriendliness, but people are there.

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