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Our Culture of Contempt

nytimes.com

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Re: Our Culture of Contempt

#21

Post by logicchains »

_ikuh wrote: post #11
TheOperator wrote: post #4

The author of this article is a conservative. Noticed how he went out of his way to appear politically neutral. Notice how one of the two comments to this post is attacking him on a reputational basis. This is the problem I see and likely the problem the author sees even if he's veiling it. The left wing specifically keeps disregarding other peoples views wholesale on a reputational basis. When I make posts online le…

You know, you make an interesting point. I think you're referring to the same thing that the author is referring to. On the left side of the political spectrum, It's not a single phenomena though, I think you can break it down into two camps on the left: 1. older-school globalist liberals. Probably older, supported the Clintons, ect. These people seem to have traditionally looked down on the right as backward, uneduc…

>New-school farther left. Probably younger, fans of AOC et al

The Axiom of Choice is a political thing now? I'd have thought it generally has strong support among both sides of the political spectrum; in spite of their vocal presence online, constructivists are still a relatively small minority of the mathematical community.

Re: Our Culture of Contempt

#22

Post by tptacek »

This is a superficial and unhelpful piece from someone who, despite appearances to the contrary, is in fact a US political partisan. That doesn't make his opinion worthless! But it does make his high-horse stance a bit much to take, to say nothing of the ahistoricism of his thesis (ask someone who appeared before HUAC if partisanism is boiling over in 2019).

That said, I come not to bury Arthur Cooke but to praise him, for while his arguments clearly have not survived condensation into an NYT op-ed, they're at least thought-provoking in longer-form media, and I can recommend as an alternative to this dumb article his lengthy podcast interview with Ezra Klein on many of the same topics:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRJuZlTtXVU

Re: Our Culture of Contempt

#23

Post by tailrecursion »

Ben Shapiro acts respectfully when answering students and debating BLM or other persons. I've seen so many instances of bad behavior on the part of his conversation partner, yet Ben remains cool and professional. The worst I remember is that instance where he refused to use a pronoun on Television. If I recall the trans person in that situation behaved very badly.

Jordan Peterson remains cool, even with interviewers that treat him badly.

Dave Rubin says repeatedly he's willing to talk to people, and that people refuse him and don't invite him.

Tim Pool keeps his cool in the midst of online and real-world dust-ups.

Tarl Warwick is also calm cool and collected. He'll talk to anyone.

Any leftist who wants to engage others productively can look to Pool as a good example.

Jimmy Dore is on the left (according to himself at least), and he's civil.

My impression is that most anyone on the spectrum will talk to anyone else, except for Resisters, who seem to have a visceral dislike for Trump that clouds their reason; and the far left, who object more or less to the entire western way of life, or capitalism, or something that would require a large amount of dismantling. It takes a lot of dissatisfaction to want to start from scratch, and these persons seem to be the most badly behaved. So my guess is they feel most of the contempt and also are the ones who receive the most contempt -- because of their abusive behavior. In fact, if the far left has any lasting principle at all it would appear to be that contempt is a wonderful club to use against anyone who isn't responding properly to their dogma.

Re: Our Culture of Contempt

#24

Post by discard0000 »

vore wrote: post #14

This is an argument you can make regardless of what is actually going on on the ground. "The problem isn't policy, it's actually polarization" -- but the article completely fails to examine the causes of said polarization: What are people feeling angry about? Which people feel angry about what? Are those people justified in feeling angry? Are those angry people just doing it for show or are their lives being actively…

Created a throwaway account for this. As a foreigner who has spent significant time living the US, indeed this seems like the kind of mealy-mouthed, somewhat vapid meta-commentary about "unity" that offers nothing more than some soundbyte call for some abstract value (in this case "better disagreement").

It doesn't address, for example, the fact that the two political factions in America now accept different versions of reality. You cannot square that circle with "better disagreement". You cannot paper over a disagreement on the nature of fundamental facts with simplistic calls for a better discourse.

To offer the most salient example: the question of whether or not the President of the country, with the help of his party and a major media outlet, is conspiring with a foreign dictatorship to undermine the democratic integrity of the country.

One demographic believes the above to be true. The other either does not believe it to be true, or alternatively does not believe it to matter even if true.

This is not some issue that can be simply bridged with "better disagreement". I'm sorry, that's just something you don't get to do.

To offer another example: whether the former President of the united states was indeed an illegitimate candidate due to not being a natural born citizen.

One side believes this to be true, the other does not.

This disconnect on reality exists across the spectrum, and the lines are harshly drawn.

If Americans cannot acknowledge that this schism in their country is arising out of a fundamental and deep disconnect on facts and reality that is widening on a day by day basis, not some mere "communication issue", they will never truly be able to understand and address it.

Re: Our Culture of Contempt

#25

Post by ikeyany »

towaway1138 wrote: post #6
TheOperator wrote: post #4

The author of this article is a conservative. Noticed how he went out of his way to appear politically neutral. Notice how one of the two comments to this post is attacking him on a reputational basis. This is the problem I see and likely the problem the author sees even if he's veiling it. The left wing specifically keeps disregarding other peoples views wholesale on a reputational basis. When I make posts online le…

> the uptick in politically motivated violence on the right I haven't looked closely, but it seems like the preponderance of such violence has been coming from the left these days (ignoring people with obvious mental health problems). Charlottesville is the obvious exception, but clearly overbalanced by the guy that attempted to assassinate a bunch of Congressmen at that ball game. Are there lots of examples I'm miss…

Yes, the Pulse nightclub shooting.

Re: Our Culture of Contempt

#26

Post by unclebucknasty »

logicchains wrote: post #19
aabeshou wrote: post #5

[flagged]

>The left, as I see it, gets and respects human vulnerability, and our need to depend on one another, and wants to build a just, equitable society where we can all fluorish. This is what people dislike about the modern left, when it makes the assumption that the intentions of its political opponents are bad just because they disagree on methodology. There are conservatives who genuinely want to build a just, equitabl…

Where is any of that discussion even being had anymore? The once vaulted values of the right you profess have been co-opted by the singular motivating force of demonizing and owning the libs. The old guard of conservatism has been reduced to mumbling around the fringes about this thing or the other. And you do not see any such talk in close proximity to the current power center of that party.

In fact, that power center is now a cult of personality.

So, seriously, why are we acting like there is any real debate as to the old ideological differences?

Re: Our Culture of Contempt

#27

Post by _bxg1 »

unclebucknasty wrote: post #16
elefanten wrote: post #13

All political mud-slinging aside, all weighing and apportioning of blame withheld, the main suggestions of the article are worthwhile. 1. Don't allow yourself to slide easily or prematurely into contempt. We do it too often these days. 2. Disagree better. You can disagree, but make your case and engage in the responses. Rhetoric has a place but it's being overused.

Your comment assumes good faith.

Good faith breeds good faith, and bad faith breeds bad faith.

Re: Our Culture of Contempt

#28

Post by tailrecursion »

_ikuh wrote: post #11
TheOperator wrote: post #4

The author of this article is a conservative. Noticed how he went out of his way to appear politically neutral. Notice how one of the two comments to this post is attacking him on a reputational basis. This is the problem I see and likely the problem the author sees even if he's veiling it. The left wing specifically keeps disregarding other peoples views wholesale on a reputational basis. When I make posts online le…

You know, you make an interesting point. I think you're referring to the same thing that the author is referring to. On the left side of the political spectrum, It's not a single phenomena though, I think you can break it down into two camps on the left: 1. older-school globalist liberals. Probably older, supported the Clintons, ect. These people seem to have traditionally looked down on the right as backward, uneduc…

> Saying "fuck that and fuck you" to anyone who supports that system is a reasonable reaction, in my opinion.

Why is saying "men can't be women" considered hate speech, and "fuck you" is not. One conveys unreasoned aggression, while the other is a clumsy attempt to state objective truth.

Re: Our Culture of Contempt

#29

Post by rlt »

myWindoonn wrote: post #8
towaway1138 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the uptick in politically motivated violence on the right I haven't looked closely, but it seems like the preponderance of such violence has been coming from the left these days (ignoring people with obvious mental health problems). Charlottesville is the obvious exception, but clearly overbalanced by the guy that attempted to assassinate a bunch of Congressmen at that ball game. Are there lots of examples I'm miss…

Yes. To pick one particular group in one particular metro area, here's violence in Portland caused by right-wing violence-causers: https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2018/07/patriot_prayers_... https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2018/08/patriot_prayer_a... https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2018/08/patriot_prayer_a... https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2018/10/patriot_prayer_f... And here's police collaborating w…

Ignoring antifa’s role in this is a bit disingenuous.

Re: Our Culture of Contempt

#30

Post by _bxg1 »

towaway1138 wrote: post #3

As a lifelong liberal, I've sunk into despair at the firehose of hatred coming from the left these days. And I talk to far fewer of my old lefty friends anymore--if they've made themselves awful, I just don't want to know. I'd prefer to remember them as they were. Maybe this is just a phase, but it feels like we're going to a place from which we won't return.

I support most of the liberal platform, but in recent years a large portion of the party's base has turned into a cesspool of hatred, cynicism, and thoughtless reactionism. We used to be the party of idealism and belief in people's basic goodness. What the hell happened?
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