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Our Culture of Contempt

nytimes.com

11–20 of 175 posts

Re: Our Culture of Contempt

#11

The author of this article is a conservative. Noticed how he went out of his way to appear politically neutral. Notice how one of the two comments to this post is attacking him on a reputational basis. This is the problem I see and likely the problem the author sees even if he's veiling it. The left wing specifically keeps disregarding other peoples views wholesale on a reputational basis. When I make posts online le…

You know, you make an interesting point. I think you're referring to the same thing that the author is referring to.

On the left side of the political spectrum, It's not a single phenomena though, I think you can break it down into two camps on the left: 1. older-school globalist liberals. Probably older, supported the Clintons, ect. These people seem to have traditionally looked down on the right as backward, uneducated "basket of deplorables" or whatever. Plays into the ivory tower liberal stereotype. 2. New-school farther left. Probably younger, fans of AOC et al. They'd also be likely to look down their noses, but in more of a moral superiority perspective.

I think the condescension of #1 goes back decades and has already borne its fruit in (at least to a degree) the political situation we find ourselves in today. I worry that group # 2 hasn't learned those lessons and is proving that they'll just repeat the same mistakes. Unless they self-destruct arguing about Israel, which totally mystifies me.

That said... so much of what comes out of the right is complete and utter bullshit. From the massive propaganda machine that is fox, to infowars, to tiny hyper-racist subreddits — there's a lot of noise to separate from the signal that might be a valid, reasonable conservative argument.

With that in mind, sometimes I wonder if we don't need a bit more contempt.

Maybe if the type of outright hate speech the mainstream right seems to support was not acceptable, that would open the floor for some actual conversation.

To summarize: I wish that democrats and the left weren't been so quick to dismiss legitimate concerns from everyone outside of NYC and SF (hyperbolic, I know). But it's right wing (and especially religiously-motivated) politics that have completely skewered our politics and media.

Saying "fuck that and fuck you" to anyone who supports that system is a reasonable reaction, in my opinion.

But where does that leave us? I don't know.

Re: Our Culture of Contempt

#12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the uptick in politically motivated violence on the right I haven't looked closely, but it seems like the preponderance of such violence has been coming from the left these days (ignoring people with obvious mental health problems). Charlottesville is the obvious exception, but clearly overbalanced by the guy that attempted to assassinate a bunch of Congressmen at that ball game. Are there lots of examples I'm miss…

Yes. To pick one particular group in one particular metro area, here's violence in Portland caused by right-wing violence-causers: https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2018/07/patriot_prayers_... https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2018/08/patriot_prayer_a... https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2018/08/patriot_prayer_a... https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2018/10/patriot_prayer_f... And here's police collaborating w…

Upvote for the links.

Yeah, I've been following the Portland thing a bit. To my eyes, it seems a bit like frenemy sport between PP (kind of full of themselves) and antifa (wannabe fascists without the martial skills).

If this is the extreme of right-wing violence in the US at present, well, wake me if something interesting happens.

Seems pretty minor compared to that prof that tried to murder someone with a bike lock (for example): https://www.foxnews.com/us/felony-charges-filed-against-alle...

And don't miss antifa hating on senior citizens: https://www.foxnews.com/us/portland-antifa-protesters-caught...

Re: Our Culture of Contempt

#13
All political mud-slinging aside, all weighing and apportioning of blame withheld, the main suggestions of the article are worthwhile.

1. Don't allow yourself to slide easily or prematurely into contempt. We do it too often these days.

2. Disagree better. You can disagree, but make your case and engage in the responses. Rhetoric has a place but it's being overused.

Re: Our Culture of Contempt

#14
This is an argument you can make regardless of what is actually going on on the ground. "The problem isn't policy, it's actually polarization" -- but the article completely fails to examine the causes of said polarization: What are people feeling angry about? Which people feel angry about what? Are those people justified in feeling angry? Are those angry people just doing it for show or are their lives being actively ruined?

You end up having to view the conflict through an ideological lens, but claiming there is some enlightened non-ideological view and the "real problem" is contemptuousness is mega disingenuous.

Re: Our Culture of Contempt

#15
post #5

[flagged]

>>All this to be a long-winded way of saying: yes, the left can be vitriolic. But you have to understand that the world as it is is crushingly inhumane to so so so many people, and people (especially privileged people) are content with the status quo and hostile to those who challenge it.

But compassion/empathy for the vulnerable/weak is not the only virtue. There is often a trade-off between compassion and other virtues (e.g. competence, discipline, protection of one's interests), and it's not always the case that choosing compassion is right pragmatically or in principle.

Compassion can also be pathological, and have harmful effects, if excessive or applied unintelligently. That's where the smothering mother motif comes from in stories and myths. Sometimes you need to hold people to account, to deter irresponsibility, for the greater good of society and even the individual who is being denied compassion. Too much compassion can and will be exploited by the unprincipled. Compassion above all else is not a sound principle around which to organize society.

Re: Our Culture of Contempt

#16

All political mud-slinging aside, all weighing and apportioning of blame withheld, the main suggestions of the article are worthwhile. 1. Don't allow yourself to slide easily or prematurely into contempt. We do it too often these days. 2. Disagree better. You can disagree, but make your case and engage in the responses. Rhetoric has a place but it's being overused.

Your comment assumes good faith.

Re: Our Culture of Contempt

#17
I wonder if the president of the American Enterprise Institute felt it so important to stress how both sides have "contempt" for one another back when a plurality of his politcal party of choice thought the president was secretly a Muslim born in Kenya.

Re: Our Culture of Contempt

#18
post #14

This is an argument you can make regardless of what is actually going on on the ground. "The problem isn't policy, it's actually polarization" -- but the article completely fails to examine the causes of said polarization: What are people feeling angry about? Which people feel angry about what? Are those people justified in feeling angry? Are those angry people just doing it for show or are their lives being actively…

[deleted]

Re: Our Culture of Contempt

#19
post #5

[flagged]

>The left, as I see it, gets and respects human vulnerability, and our need to depend on one another, and wants to build a just, equitable society where we can all fluorish.

This is what people dislike about the modern left, when it makes the assumption that the intentions of its political opponents are bad just because they disagree on methodology. There are conservatives who genuinely want to build a just, equitable society where everyone can flourish, and believe that strong welfare problems go against this by making people dependent on handouts. There are conservatives who genuinely believe the best way to achieve a flourishing, happy society is by following the tenants of some religion. There are conservatives who believe a just, fair society is one in which people are rewarded in accordance to how others value their work (how much other people are willing to pay them). Two people can want the same outcome but widely differ in belief about the best way to achieve it; assuming that your counterparty has bad intentions just because they disagree on the best way to achieve something or have a different definition of a word like "fair" does not lead to healthy discourse.

Re: Our Culture of Contempt

#20

As a lifelong liberal, I've sunk into despair at the firehose of hatred coming from the left these days. And I talk to far fewer of my old lefty friends anymore--if they've made themselves awful, I just don't want to know. I'd prefer to remember them as they were. Maybe this is just a phase, but it feels like we're going to a place from which we won't return.

I graduated with a degree in art, which means all my old college friends are more left-leaning than is usual.

I still keep in touch with many of them on Facebook, and the amount of absolute insanity coming from them is staggering and depressing.

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