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Is It a Duck or a Rabbit? For Google Cloud Vision, Depends on Image Rotation

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Re: Is It a Duck or a Rabbit? For Google Cloud Vision, Depends on Image Rotation

#81

Post by rjf72 »

gambler wrote: post #60
ratel wrote: post #46

I quite surprised at the comments on HN so far as nobody seems to see the significance of this. Yes, the image is ambiguous. The point is that Google Cloud Vision gives an unambiguous answer of that image based on the rotation. Transformations of an image are regularly used to improve the results of image recognition. That process fails quit dramatically if in the course of a transformation the answer given is presen…

I'm glad that at least someone here sees the problem, but I am not surprised by the typical reaction of AI apologists in this thread. You always get at least one of the two responses: "OMG, this is amazing, it's just like humans. We're probably close to AGI." "Ha-ha, humans are stupid, so the algorithm giving unexpected result is just a proof that it's better and less biased." Here, we have both in response to the sa…

AI has become exactly like most complex issues with multiple distinct 'sides'. For whatever reason everybody is expected to have an opinion even though, of all people, it's generally safe to say The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. - Bertrand Russell

Though in this case, stupid/intelligent are probably overly harsh. Intelligent people are certainly not immune to this 'trap'. In some ways they can be even more susceptible since they may themselves know very little, but that very little is still enough to put them ahead of 80% of the rest which can yield unjustified confidence. So let's just say uninformed/informed.

Re: Is It a Duck or a Rabbit? For Google Cloud Vision, Depends on Image Rotation

#82

Post by immernerstheime »

cubano wrote: post #64
gambler wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm glad that at least someone here sees the problem, but I am not surprised by the typical reaction of AI apologists in this thread. You always get at least one of the two responses: "OMG, this is amazing, it's just like humans. We're probably close to AGI." "Ha-ha, humans are stupid, so the algorithm giving unexpected result is just a proof that it's better and less biased." Here, we have both in response to the sa…

Probably, and I do hate being the cynic in the room, it's due to the huge salaries and interesting, specific use-case work that NN-based AI is generating these days.

you are right

probably , due to bullshit hiding knowledge from researchers , just for fun , like if there were Gods like greek gods or so , doing it for fun...

its not a monopoly of cartelized evil researchers or capistalist owners factorylords, gatekeepers intentionally egoistic possesors of the science knowledge, No , that is not the case

Its like it happens naturally, by forces of the natural human stupidity

anyway all programming is evil so...

dont know even what the fck am I doing commenting in this shitty topic

but I have anyway the fckng freewill to fkcng comment...

frewill always

EveryOne

thanks

unimportant note

the slogan Free Will Always EveryOne is open as in an open beer can and free as in fucking freewill and free beer at the Trio de Carnaval in Brazil carnival

and common fucking domain of Nature Itself, myfriend, mor open then wikicommons, its The Fckng Free Domain Open and Public and Common

you have the free will to use it

freewill always

EveryOne

thanks

But fucking remember: that shit is Not fucking my slogan , I dont have fucking slogans, dont make fucking analogies with fucking me, Dont make analogies with me!!! Fuck!

not my fucking slogan!

no fucking analogies with me!

no analogies!

fuck

there is no Marco_s fucking Mark left

No fucking Mark; no fucking marks; No mark!

Cheers!

thanks

Re: Is It a Duck or a Rabbit? For Google Cloud Vision, Depends on Image Rotation

#83

Post by sangnoir »

gambler wrote: post #72
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can someone explain why this is a problem? I'm not an "AI apologist", but I would consider it a good thing that the model pegs it as a rabbit when it is in more of a "rabbit orientation" and a duck when it is in more of a "duck orientation".

In the real world, you don't want AI to instantly flip from 90% confidence in one direction to 90% confidence in the other direction, because it would cause erratic behavior. What would be preferable is a large zone where it gives both labels .45 score. Then you can apply higher-level reasoning based on the possibility that the object could be either of those two labels (i.e. act on the possibility of the most danger…

That doesn't make intuitive sense to me - I don't think humans have such a zone for (all) binary choices. An example that comes to my mind is the rotating Spinning Dancer Illusion[1] - I am 100% confident that she's spinning to the left, or 100% confident she's spinning to the right - there is no middle-ground where my brain tells me "it could be either direction".

Multistable/Bistable perception is not unique to Google Cloud vision - it afflicts humans too.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinning_Dancer

Re: Is It a Duck or a Rabbit? For Google Cloud Vision, Depends on Image Rotation

#84

Post by ivanhoe »

gambler wrote: post #72
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can someone explain why this is a problem? I'm not an "AI apologist", but I would consider it a good thing that the model pegs it as a rabbit when it is in more of a "rabbit orientation" and a duck when it is in more of a "duck orientation".

In the real world, you don't want AI to instantly flip from 90% confidence in one direction to 90% confidence in the other direction, because it would cause erratic behavior. What would be preferable is a large zone where it gives both labels .45 score. Then you can apply higher-level reasoning based on the possibility that the object could be either of those two labels (i.e. act on the possibility of the most danger…

But it doesn't instantly flip the decision in a way that can oscillate, it recognizes the similarity in specific positions where humans would also recognize it, and doesn't recognize anything in between (again the same as humans would). Isn't that the goal, to mimic how us humans do it? Imagine recognizing numbers 6 and 9, you want AI to recognize it with high certainty depending on what part of the digit is up, you don't want 45% certainty that it might be 9 or 6. Or am I missing something?

Re: Is It a Duck or a Rabbit? For Google Cloud Vision, Depends on Image Rotation

#85

Post by Klathmon »

ratel wrote: post #46

I quite surprised at the comments on HN so far as nobody seems to see the significance of this. Yes, the image is ambiguous. The point is that Google Cloud Vision gives an unambiguous answer of that image based on the rotation. Transformations of an image are regularly used to improve the results of image recognition. That process fails quit dramatically if in the course of a transformation the answer given is presen…

But the human brain fails at this if it's rotated also...

If you showed me the rabbit rotation of the picture, i'd tell you with pretty high confidence that it's a rabbit.

If you showed me the duck rotation, i'd tell you with pretty high confidence that it's a duck.

That's the point of this, it's an illusion.

And it did give a bit of an "I don't know" answer for many of the rotations in the middle of the gif/video, which is exactly as I would expect it to, and when I pause the video at those points and glance at it, it doesn't look like much of anything to me either.

Re: Is It a Duck or a Rabbit? For Google Cloud Vision, Depends on Image Rotation

#86

Post by mjburgess »

SlowRobotAhead wrote: post #69
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can someone explain why this is a problem? I'm not an "AI apologist", but I would consider it a good thing that the model pegs it as a rabbit when it is in more of a "rabbit orientation" and a duck when it is in more of a "duck orientation".

In this case, a rabbit and duck are approximately the same size and danger level. So few cases where there is harm possible. What if it was AI looking at bacteria? Or scanning a roadside for IEDs? Or when a guy on a bike when turned and rotated the correct way appears to be a crosswalk paint mark of a guy on a bike? If our current AI is making different “DEFINITE” determinations based only on image rotation - there i…

Not sure why you're being down-voted, this is exactly the issue.

The image is both a rabbit and a duck regardless of orientation, capturing the object it depicts as a single class with a confidence measure is a mistake.

The magnitude of this mistake becomes apparent when you connect it to real-world decision making, and it becomes highly unsafe.

As is most of ML because it only uses statistical (rather than causal) modelling of the world -- so really, it is only offering us generalised statistical associations. It cannot cope with statistical discontinuities.

Re: Is It a Duck or a Rabbit? For Google Cloud Vision, Depends on Image Rotation

#87

Post by 2muchcoffeeman »

Klathmon wrote: post #85
ratel wrote: post #46

I quite surprised at the comments on HN so far as nobody seems to see the significance of this. Yes, the image is ambiguous. The point is that Google Cloud Vision gives an unambiguous answer of that image based on the rotation. Transformations of an image are regularly used to improve the results of image recognition. That process fails quit dramatically if in the course of a transformation the answer given is presen…

But the human brain fails at this if it's rotated also... If you showed me the rabbit rotation of the picture, i'd tell you with pretty high confidence that it's a rabbit. If you showed me the duck rotation, i'd tell you with pretty high confidence that it's a duck. That's the point of this, it's an illusion. And it did give a bit of an "I don't know" answer for many of the rotations in the middle of the gif/video, w…

But a human brain should only falls for it once. You have your initial reaction, realise it might be the other animal and then from there you know it’s an illusion and the rotation of the picture no longer matters.

Re: Is It a Duck or a Rabbit? For Google Cloud Vision, Depends on Image Rotation

#88

Post by [deleted] »

2muchcoffeeman wrote: post #87
Klathmon wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the human brain fails at this if it's rotated also... If you showed me the rabbit rotation of the picture, i'd tell you with pretty high confidence that it's a rabbit. If you showed me the duck rotation, i'd tell you with pretty high confidence that it's a duck. That's the point of this, it's an illusion. And it did give a bit of an "I don't know" answer for many of the rotations in the middle of the gif/video, w…

But a human brain should only falls for it once. You have your initial reaction, realise it might be the other animal and then from there you know it’s an illusion and the rotation of the picture no longer matters.

[deleted]

Re: Is It a Duck or a Rabbit? For Google Cloud Vision, Depends on Image Rotation

#89

Post by joshuamorton »

gambler wrote: post #72
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can someone explain why this is a problem? I'm not an "AI apologist", but I would consider it a good thing that the model pegs it as a rabbit when it is in more of a "rabbit orientation" and a duck when it is in more of a "duck orientation".

In the real world, you don't want AI to instantly flip from 90% confidence in one direction to 90% confidence in the other direction, because it would cause erratic behavior. What would be preferable is a large zone where it gives both labels .45 score. Then you can apply higher-level reasoning based on the possibility that the object could be either of those two labels (i.e. act on the possibility of the most danger…

You'd think, but the entire reason that softmax is so common in ml is because the artificial certainly is the preferred behavior.

Re: Is It a Duck or a Rabbit? For Google Cloud Vision, Depends on Image Rotation

#90

Post by karakrakow »

gambler wrote: post #72
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can someone explain why this is a problem? I'm not an "AI apologist", but I would consider it a good thing that the model pegs it as a rabbit when it is in more of a "rabbit orientation" and a duck when it is in more of a "duck orientation".

In the real world, you don't want AI to instantly flip from 90% confidence in one direction to 90% confidence in the other direction, because it would cause erratic behavior. What would be preferable is a large zone where it gives both labels .45 score. Then you can apply higher-level reasoning based on the possibility that the object could be either of those two labels (i.e. act on the possibility of the most danger…

This. Maybe the AI needs to know somehow that it's the same image it saw a few seconds ago, but now presented at a different angle or the AI itself should look at an image at different angles, just to be sure, that is how humans sometimes look at pictures if they are confused. Something to contextualize every image wrt to what it recently saw and make the current decision a little less overconfident.
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