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A Vegan No More
201–210 of 275 posts
Re: A Vegan No More
#202For what it's worth, I don't think of people who eat diets supposedly free of animal products as "vegan". I think of them as "fundamentalist". To me, veganism is about creating a culture where we don't abuse animals. It happens that part of that work for me involves mostly not eating meat. But sometimes eating meat is exactly what I need to do. Eating meat, in specific ways, can be a way to connect with people, a way…
There are lots of reasons for being vegan. What if you can not digest animal products very well, or just think it is healthier to eat vegan. YOur world view seems rather black and white.
Also I don't understand the part about connecting with people - so if you don't eat meat, you have troubles connecting (if you eat something else)? How so? Also, does eating meat also help you to connect with vegans, or maybe not?
All in all, I call bullshit.
Re: A Vegan No More
#203Reposting my thoughts from Reddit: As a vegan I'm sad on two fronts. a) That some vegans see the need to attack someone in this way. I know some vegans consider (including myself) see it as a deeply moral issue. However, I'd rather be like Ghandi than a fundamentalist. First and foremost, we can't help how we are made. I can't understand how it is immoral to care for oneself first. That said I personally haven't suff…
Maybe people just don't like being told that their moral stance is less strict than yours when they don't feel they're doing anything wrong. Your post is almost literally asking, "Why are people upset when I have a holier-than-thou attitude?" What is really the difference between, "I have chosen a stricter moral stance," and holier-than-thou?
Re: A Vegan No More
#204Earlier quoted context omitted.
The point of the story is that not everyone can do a Vegan diet and still be healthy. While this is just one example it does demonstrate the principle that meat is a necessary and vital part of some peoples healthy eating. I sometimes wonder if Vegans worry about Lions on the savannah eating antelope. Do they want prevent that as well. Humans are Omnivores. We are built to get nutrients from both meat and plantlife.…
> The point of the story is that not everyone can do a Vegan diet and still be healthy. When you hear a story about how some substance 'cured cancer' do you instantly conclude that the claims are necessarily correct - even for the cured person in the story? Would you expect the story to become popular on HN? The problem with one-off anecdotes like this is that they don't even conclusively demonstrate anything. > I so…
> Dude that is a really ignorant and insulting thing to say.
Why? We have it within our power to prevent that particular form of animal suffering. Give me enough money and political power and I could round up all the antelope and lions and keep em seperated. How is ignoring that form of animal suffering any different than ignoring animal farming?
> And here you demonstrate your limited grasp of evolution which a resort to a naturalistic fallacy.
I'll bite. How is it a fallacy? Fact: Humans are capable of digesting and processing meat. Fact: Humans have been eating meat for as long as we've been around. Fact: Humans get a number of nutrients in meat that are not easily found elsewhere in a form we can process.
>> Our metabolisms work best when we eat both in moderation. > Actually the research demonstrates otherwise.
Citation needed
> That is trivially true in a society where adding animal products to many foods is routine. If even 20% of the population was vegan it would be trivial to follow a vegan diet.
Because the market would provide? Either way you still have to work harder and be far more careful with what you eat in order to pull it off so my point still stands.
No where did I say it was impossible. Notice I said in moderation as well. You wouldn't have to eat a lot of meat to get the required nutrition.
Re: A Vegan No More
#205I'm all for radicalism since radicals are the main force questioning conventional wisdom. But the size of the vegan movement is totally out of proportion to its veracity. Take the whole "meat is murder" slogan. It's ridiculous from the outset and completely ignores our existence within the earth's ecosystem. I mean industrialized animal farming is fairly horrific, but the way to stop that is by advocating and paying…
I've always wondered what the plan is. Meaning, suppose the entire population is "enlightened" to the vegan diet and stops eating meat and using animal products, what are we supposed to do with the animals we're no longer eating? The industry just in the U.S. consumes something like 150 million cattle and 9 billion fowl per year and that's not counting the animals we use for other purposes (dairy, eggs, etc.) Are we…
I imagine we just let them go extinct.
Re: A Vegan No More
#206Earlier quoted context omitted.
Being a strict vegan and getting all the required nutrients to maintain optimal health is almost mutually exclusive. You can take pills and shots to make up for the missing parts but these use animal products. It can be an insane amount of work for normal people. To say it would be easy if more people do it does not reflect the realities of nutrition. I wish you luck but it is not and can not be for everyone at leat…
Dude you've mostly just stated a bunch of unsubstantiated opinions which I assert are factually in error. You specifically mentioned 'there is no shortage of research that show it can harm the infant'. If there is no shortage of this research then you should easily be able to provide at least one reference.
Rather than list all the studies here I'll just link you to a page with that lists them.
http://healthpsych.psy.vanderbilt.edu/2008/VeganDiets.htm
That page lists studies showing B12 deficiencies, bone density issues, and elevated Homocystein issues.
Also there is a very strong link to issues with pregnant and nursing women and their babies due to B12 deficiencies. The opinion of most researchers in this area appears to be that pregnant and nursing women should not follow a strict Vegan diet.
Re: A Vegan No More
#207Earlier quoted context omitted.
I've always wondered what the plan is. Meaning, suppose the entire population is "enlightened" to the vegan diet and stops eating meat and using animal products, what are we supposed to do with the animals we're no longer eating? The industry just in the U.S. consumes something like 150 million cattle and 9 billion fowl per year and that's not counting the animals we use for other purposes (dairy, eggs, etc.) Are we…
I imagine we just let them go extinct.
If killing and eating animals is inhumane and immoral, is mass genocide any better?
Re: A Vegan No More
#208Earlier quoted context omitted.
Your accusation of strawman doesn't hold. It is a valid point that if you claim your movement is about health, but you ignore the biggest health problem there is (because it does not fit the ideology), the claims to health should be, if not entirely ignored, certainly not taken at face value. It's perfectly logical.
Are you claiming that everyone out there that claims to be vegan is part of some all-encompassing singular movement? Who is the leader? Where is the movement's webpage?
Are you claiming that nobody ever uses that argument?
That rhetorical device cuts both ways, which is why it is useless in actual logic.
I don't become paralyzed by the fact that I can't draw absolute boundaries around things, and I reject disingenuous invitations to be so paralyzed for your rhetorical benefit. Yes, this is clearly an argument made for veganism, by a significant proportion of vegan thought leaders. I reject the idea that people should be allowed to make arguments but as soon as they are challenged go hiding behind the claims that "well, not everyone thinks that way so you can't criticize it". That's just flat-out bullshit. The original argument was and is valid.
Re: A Vegan No More
#209Earlier quoted context omitted.
But the size of the vegan movement is totally out of proportion to its veracity. That's a weird statement. When is "movement size" ever a good indicator of truth? Anyway, veganism is not about "veracity", it's about a different set of moral beliefs, or a particular diet, or... You speak of vegans as if it was a monolithic group, and you paint it with a negative brush because of a few crazy individuals. That's like di…
> Really? All of the vegans I know care a lot > about eating a balanced and healthy diet (at > least, more than the average non-vegan). Not necessarily. I know a number of vegans that don't necessarily eat that healthy. The thing that irks me is when vegans proclaim that the 'vegan diet' will make everyone healthier, cure obesity, etc. There are plenty of unhealthy foods that are perfectly vegan. I say this as a vega…
Not necessarily. I know a number of vegans that don't necessarily eat that healthy.
You know all of the parent's vegan people?
The thing that irks me is when vegans proclaim that the 'vegan diet' will make everyone healthier, cure obesity, etc. There are plenty of unhealthy foods that are perfectly vegan. I say this as a vegan myself. I see these people as 'hurting the movement' because they are spreading un-truths, even if they are well-intentioned (and the messengers believe the false message).
The marketing aspect of things related to animal rights and vegetarianism/veganism is done very poorly, and I wish we could undo all the bad stuff that's been spread throughout the last 20+ years. Is it true that veganism is more healthy if done properly? The differing research out there makes that inconclusive, in my opinion. To me it's a "it works for me, YMMV" sort of thing.
Re: A Vegan No More
#210Earlier quoted context omitted.
Best line in the whole post: "I now no longer lie to myself about the fact that life requires death." I never understood the "Meat is murder" slogan. It's factual. They should have used "Meat is torture". I think it's more accurate with their line of thinking.
I wonder what they think about plant death. You do quite literally kill plants when you rip them out of the ground and take a bite out of them. Even if you only ate nuts or beans you are still killing off their unborn child plants.
Plants to scream when you kill them. We just can't normally hear it.
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg15320720.800-stressed-...