A Vegan No More • Hacker News Board

Re: A Vegan No More

#191

Post by elblanco » Tue, Nov 23, 2010, 1:25 PM UTC

Egregore wrote: post #160

huhtenberg wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait till they discover Plant and Fungus Suffering. That should make things plenty more interesting :)

Plants and fungus don't have nervous system, so there are no scientifically demonstrable ways how they will use ability to suffer. Animals can move and suffering helps them find better conditions, for example if there is to hot an animal will seek another place, if something causes suffering animals will try to avoid it, plants on the other hand can't move and can't avoid suffering so plants don't need to feel suffer…

>Plants and fungus don't have nervous system

Who says plants don't have a different, but equivalent way of sensing their environment?

Plants respond to stressors in the same way that animals do, they fail to thrive -- they wilt, or don't produce fruit, they grow more slowly, etc. Overtime, plants evolve defensive mechanisms like bark, thorns or poisons. Everything an animal does (or at least with strong analogies to animals), except plants aren't mobile.

Plants also respond to positive stimuli in the same way animals do, they thrive. Plants turn to face the sun, they grow faster, reproduce faster, produce more flowers and fruit, they stand taller, their leaves are fuller, their stems are firmer, all have strong analogies in the animal kingdom.

Anybody who's ever taken care of a house plant can attest to the fact that plants that are well cared for, doted over, with careful attention to making sure all of the plants needs are met, thrive better (seem happier) than those that aren't.

Re: A Vegan No More

#192

Post by araneae » Tue, Nov 23, 2010, 1:49 PM UTC

chaitanya wrote: post #74

araneae wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I know the difference. I was merely saying that her symptoms sound identical to my friend's, that's all. Just like some people seem to be successful as vegans, others may be unsuccessful at being vegetarians.

I have never known anyone who's been unsuccessful at being a vegetarian (and about half my friends and family are vegetarian). Edit: the only time I have known someone switch to a non-veg diet (after becoming an adult) is when they started going to the gym and were keen on building muscle mass.

Well you probably know a different set of people I do. I know quite a few that quit. Of the ones that are current, one is my cousin, but she confessed to me that after last Thanksgiving she bought herself an entire turkey and ate the whole thing in one sitting. Another friend of mine is a veg as well, but she eats one steak per month to prevent anemia. Of the two that are strict non-meat eaters, one is the friend that is always sick all the time, and the other has an underweight BMI. Yay anecdotes!

Re: A Vegan No More

#193

Post by Yaggo » Tue, Nov 23, 2010, 2:05 PM UTC

elblanco wrote: post #178

dasil003 wrote: post #13

I'm all for radicalism since radicals are the main force questioning conventional wisdom. But the size of the vegan movement is totally out of proportion to its veracity. Take the whole "meat is murder" slogan. It's ridiculous from the outset and completely ignores our existence within the earth's ecosystem. I mean industrialized animal farming is fairly horrific, but the way to stop that is by advocating and paying…

I've always wondered what the plan is. Meaning, suppose the entire population is "enlightened" to the vegan diet and stops eating meat and using animal products, what are we supposed to do with the animals we're no longer eating? The industry just in the U.S. consumes something like 150 million cattle and 9 billion fowl per year and that's not counting the animals we use for other purposes (dairy, eggs, etc.) Are we…

The life cycle of farm animals is very short (from few weeks to couple of years), much shorter than the "enlightening" process would take. We just need to stop to produce "replacement" animals for the eaten ones. Simple as that.

Re: A Vegan No More

#194

Post by zaphar » Tue, Nov 23, 2010, 2:09 PM UTC

colanderman wrote: post #127

philwelch wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Veganism implies a moral consideration for animals; opposition to rape doesn't.

Correction: veganism implies a moral consideration for animals from the point of view of humans . That is, most vegans believe it to be immoral to kill an animal because we as humans are (for the most part) capable of surviving without doing so, and we have the capacity to recognize this fact. True carnivores have neither of these traits and therefore are not morally obligated not to eat meat. Apologies if my analogy…

Except that the OP is one example of someone who clearly can not survive without doing so. It may be true that some Humans can do so but it is not true that all Humans can do so.

Re: A Vegan No More

#195

Post by randallsquared » Tue, Nov 23, 2010, 2:11 PM UTC

pyre wrote: post #133

_3u10 wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll be downvoted into oblivion for saying this but there are lots of ways that the average vegetarian or vegan every day supports killing animals for their own personal benefit. Animals are killed every day so that we can live a better life. It's not a big deal. Get over it or get off the grid. I hope you don't drive on roads, or use anything produced by the petrochemical industry. Hell, somewhere between your compu…

> I hope you don't drive on roads, or use anything produced by the > petrochemical industry. I've yet to hear that humans have successfully produced crude oil from livestock. Do you have a source of this? > Also, have you EVER considered how many field animals die to produce > vegetables? 1. You're creating a false dichotomy. Either a person eliminates all things in their life that affect animals, or they eliminate n…

It borders on the, "I'm only one person. I can't make a difference. Why should I bother to vote," argument.

Whoa, here. The argument against voting is completely separate from the argument against supporting something you abhor in the market. In the latter case, all else equal, the industry will eventually do less of that thing than they would if you were supporting it, even if no one else ever changes. The effect seems small weighed against the sum total of usage, but over years, there are animals never born, raised, and killed if you choose to stop using animal products. The analogy with voting is poor, since if you, personally, choose to vote for the other side or not to vote at all, your decision has literally zero effect on the outcome.

Re: A Vegan No More

#196

Post by elblanco » Tue, Nov 23, 2010, 2:12 PM UTC

Yaggo wrote: post #193

elblanco wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always wondered what the plan is. Meaning, suppose the entire population is "enlightened" to the vegan diet and stops eating meat and using animal products, what are we supposed to do with the animals we're no longer eating? The industry just in the U.S. consumes something like 150 million cattle and 9 billion fowl per year and that's not counting the animals we use for other purposes (dairy, eggs, etc.) Are we…

The life cycle of farm animals is very short (from few weeks to couple of years), much shorter than the "enlightening" process would take. We just need to stop to produce "replacement" animals for the eaten ones. Simple as that.

> We just need to stop to produce "replacement" animals for the eaten ones. Simple as that.

This brings up the second question, whenever I hear "we just" or "simply" or some other similar keywords, it often involves a wholesale change in the mindset of all of humanity to accomplish whatever is being posited.

(not to mention that many people would probably consider the forced sterilization of billions of animals inhumane and immoral)

Re: A Vegan No More

#197

Post by JoeAltmaier » Tue, Nov 23, 2010, 2:16 PM UTC

tomstuart wrote: post #117

Look, veganism is a preference, not a religion. For me, the salient facts are that eating animals and animal products is a) ethically questionable and b) avoidable. But it's just a choice. If I go round someone's house and they've cooked me an otherwise vegan meal but put cheese on top, I'm not going to be a dick about it, I'm going to eat it. Food isn't magic. Maybe this makes me not really vegan, or a "bad vegan" o…

You don't get emotionally wrecked when your preference is defeated. "Wracking sobs and tears" - that's a reactopm tp a firmly-held lifelong belief being deconstructed - so for her it was religion.

Re: A Vegan No More

#198

Post by JoeAltmaier » Tue, Nov 23, 2010, 2:19 PM UTC

sh1mmer wrote: post #115

Reposting my thoughts from Reddit: As a vegan I'm sad on two fronts. a) That some vegans see the need to attack someone in this way. I know some vegans consider (including myself) see it as a deeply moral issue. However, I'd rather be like Ghandi than a fundamentalist. First and foremost, we can't help how we are made. I can't understand how it is immoral to care for oneself first. That said I personally haven't suff…

Well, if you rationalize your beliefs, and folks poke holes in those rationalizations, then it isn't wanting "to take me down a peg for my beliefs", its debate. And when you are wrong in debate, its not quite fair to wrap yourself in religion and claim foul.

Re: A Vegan No More

#199

Post by elblanco » Tue, Nov 23, 2010, 2:23 PM UTC

numix wrote: post #17

dasil003 wrote: post #13

I'm all for radicalism since radicals are the main force questioning conventional wisdom. But the size of the vegan movement is totally out of proportion to its veracity. Take the whole "meat is murder" slogan. It's ridiculous from the outset and completely ignores our existence within the earth's ecosystem. I mean industrialized animal farming is fairly horrific, but the way to stop that is by advocating and paying…

I often wonder where these veracious vegans are. I've yet to meet a vegan who has been evangelical, yet have met many omnivores who speak poorly of vegans. Is this a region specific problem?

I wish someday that the next vegans I meet are the same bunch you've met. Almost every single vegan I've met has been the loud, obnoxious, moralizing, more righteousnesses than thou, I don't care if I'm being difficult and selfish and forcing everybody around me to adopt to my personal life choices and I won't bother to accommodate anything other people need and I make sure to make people go out of their way to make sure there's at least one vegan-certified pizza at the corporate pizza party at the cost of 4 of the other pizzas (and then I won't eat more than half a slice) type.

I have to give special notice to two of my vegan friends who are not like that, but they are a very rare exception to the rule.

Re: A Vegan No More

#200

Post by Tichy » Tue, Nov 23, 2010, 2:29 PM UTC

zaphar wrote: post #6

dejb wrote: post #4

> I never expected this post to get so much attention. There is nothing more popular than an anecdote that appeals to people's pre-existing biases. Unfortunately there will be many for which this one story will provide the same weight of evidence as the entire China Study.

The point of the story is that not everyone can do a Vegan diet and still be healthy. While this is just one example it does demonstrate the principle that meat is a necessary and vital part of some peoples healthy eating. I sometimes wonder if Vegans worry about Lions on the savannah eating antelope. Do they want prevent that as well. Humans are Omnivores. We are built to get nutrients from both meat and plantlife.…

Just as well there are probably people who can not eat a meat diet and be healthy, for example if they are allergic to eggs, milk or some meat variants. In fact the percentage of people who can't deal with milk is very high. If you go into a normal supermarket, it is actually very difficult to find any foods that don't have milk in it (Lactose being used for lots of dirty tricks).

The symptoms she describes (bloated belly, increased heart rate after eating) sound to me more as if there were some other problems - maybe she couldn't deal with some parts of the food very well. I've just read a good book about those problems (it is not allergies, I don't know the proper translation), and for example up to 17% of humans in the western world have problems digesting fructose. So naturally stuffing themselves with vegetables might cause problems. In that book it is also explained that those problems can often be cured in a matter of weeks. Few doctors are knowledgeable about those, though.