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Treat Medicines Like Netflix Treats Shows

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Re: Treat Medicines Like Netflix Treats Shows

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> US doctors must follow national guidelines laid out by a scientific body No thanks. My daughter is alive today thanks to a therapy that would not be sanctioned by 'standards bodies'. I'm good. Thank goodness her doctor was a professional that was able to make professional judgements. If you want to reduce doctoring to looking up values in a dictionary, I suggest you try that with you and yours first, before forcing…

Do you mind sharing some details, without naming names? I'm curious to know more about the specific issue.

Sure. My wife had lost several pregnancies, including late losses. All sudden. There was no explanation ... tests all normal. Went to several MFMs at UCSF, Stanford, Mayo Clinic, etc, who told us that there was no evidence backed treatment to offer. Her obstetrician (been in practice almost 50 years) told my wife that she had a blood clotting disorder (although the tests certainly did not indicate that, at all). She was rather confident in this given the way we lost babies (hearts stopped overnight), but again, this was not evidence backed, because of a lack of diagnostic tests showing a clotting disorder. However, her OB came from a time when medicine meant looking at symptoms, not just tests. Her OB told her that since the time she was in practice many of her patients who lost babies this way ended up being diagnosed with clotting disorders many decades after the fact, because we are always discovering new thrombophilia risks, but that either way, they were successful in just using anti-clotting agents.

The treatment for clots during pregnancy is a daily injection called enoxaparin, which is rather expensive ($400/wk for 40 weeks), so insurance certainly does not want to pay.

Well, long story short, after seven pregnancy losses, she did the injections, and had a pretty textbook pregnancy. Of course, after we had the baby, all the 'evidence-based' doctors changed their tune and now insist that enoxaparin is a necessity if she wants to get pregnant again. Not just for the baby either, but for her health (since blood clots can lead to pretty sudden death for mothers).

So, yeah, basically her OBs advice, which was based entirely on intuition and five decades of actual clinical practice, saved both the lives of my daughter and in some ways my wife (again, she may have been at risk of clots during previous pregnancies).

Ultimately, medicine is not just about knowing what's in a book. These days, most medical knowledge is available for free online. When we went to UCSF, Stanford, and the Mayo Clinic, the 'care' we received included having the various conditions that can harm second-trimester fetuses listed for us and then we were explained why my wife did not have them. Of course, all these conditions we already knew about because of reading comprehension. I would not classify the information we got there as 'professional', because it was really a simple matter of looking up data in an index. On the other hand, her OBs care was actual professional care. We pay our doctors to give their opinion on our care based not just on what the books say but also based on what they have learned. An insistence on 'evidence-based' care reduces the ability for doctors to actually treat patients, and will -- inevitably, even if it takes some decades -- lead to a lack of evidence as new generations of doctors become less trusting of their intuition and more reliant on external validation.

EDIT: to be clear, it's not just a lack of evidence this treatment works. Several large-scale studies have been done in the United States and Europe (esp Britain) to see whether this therapy works at all. In Britain, where the NHS was considering this as a treatment for recurrent loss in the absence of diagnosis, the studies showed that the treatment was not effective, hence the NHS wouldn't cover it. Her OB knew of these studies and insisted they work, and also pointed out that studies done in other countries (like countries in the Middle East and Southeast Asia, where the demographics more closely fit those of my wife) did show an improvement. However, those studies weren't taken into account to help British mothers by their own national system. Thus, if my wife were British (or even in her parent's country of Canada), her treatment would not have been covered, but, because American insurance mostly pays for what the doctor prescribes, ours was paid for.

Re: Treat Medicines Like Netflix Treats Shows

#112

This is insurance. Literally insurance. You pay a monthly fee in return for a good, service or cash payment should something happen. however in the USA, something odd has happened. For what ever reason, be it legal, cultural or other, copay, crippling buerocracy and down right greed has stopped the health system working properly. The problem with a "netflix" model, is that doctors can currently prescribe anything, re…

> The problem with a "netflix" model, is that doctors can currently prescribe anything, regardless of cost or efficacy. We should just have single payer that covers A) drugs not under patent B) drugs with breakthrough designation. If people want other drugs that are patented they should then just have to get supplemental private insurance.

I think this is a good idea. Quite a bit of drugs we take are already generic. I'm a dialysis patient and 10 out of the 12 drugs I take daily are generic. The remaining 2 will become generic within a year. I think having access ti cheap generics will make a huge difference to everyone.

Re: Treat Medicines Like Netflix Treats Shows

#114
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree insurance companies do harm, encouraging generics is probably a net benefit. Doctors, just like anyone else, respond to marketing, so they remember 'viagra' more easily than 'sildenafil' and write prescriptions accordingly. There's often no medical reason a generic isn't 100% suitable.

The insurance companies are not recommending generics because it’s cheaper for the patient...they do it because it’s cheaper for them. There are many reasons generics, especially in the case of Medicare patients with chronic conditions, are worse for a patient. Generally if you have a Medicare patientwith chronic conditions such as diabeties and/or high blood pressure, and their physician has successfully been managi…

Do you think cost should ever be a factor in patient care? Looking it up, generics usually cost 80-85% less than brand drugs. They are tested and contain the exact same active ingredients. Is it worth the patient and/or the insurance company paying 5-7x more to keep the coloring agents etc the same? I understand that sometimes it may make a difference, probably especially for things with complicated delivery mechanisms like time-release drugs, but in those specific cases the doctor can explicitly request brand if it's important.

Usually the patient copays are substantially higher for brand drugs than generic ones. And the insurance company paying obviously isn't free money either, it's from premiums that people pay every month (and/or taxes). At least in the US, people often don't get medical care because of the expense, so anything that inflates the cost further can be expected to cause real negative health outcomes by pricing more people out.

I agree it would be better to not change even minor things if a drug is working. But I think that problem would be better solved by (as a condition of drug approval) requiring companies to disclose coloring agents, binders etc to generics makers once the patent expires, so they can make the exact same drug that was used in the initial clinical studies, rather than overpaying for drugs by 5-7x.

Re: Treat Medicines Like Netflix Treats Shows

#115
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, can you explain how we "average" the utility? For me, it has zero value. For another person, it saves their life, and they would pay literally anything they could. How do we average that? My hot take: We can't. Buy medicine in bulk, give it to people for free, progressive taxes to pay for it.

I like your take, but how are we going to enforce progressive taxation? The wealthiest firms escape taxation, at the moment.

We ought to tax wealth instead of income, and tax individuals instead of corporations. The nature of corporate wealth is that the generation of value is disconnected from the generation of cash. It’s impossible to fairly regulate the infinite shell games that result from this. The problem we are trying to fix is inequality of wealth, so we should tax wealth directly and not via proxies like corporate profits.

Re: Treat Medicines Like Netflix Treats Shows

#116

This is insurance. Literally insurance. You pay a monthly fee in return for a good, service or cash payment should something happen. however in the USA, something odd has happened. For what ever reason, be it legal, cultural or other, copay, crippling buerocracy and down right greed has stopped the health system working properly. The problem with a "netflix" model, is that doctors can currently prescribe anything, re…

Censuring healthcare options unfortunately stifles a patients' ability to pursue experimental treatments. This is an essential option for surviving an illness that is poorly understood by the mainstream. Experimental does not mean lack of scientific rigor. On the contrary, experiments are science.

National guidelines will always be behind the most cutting edge treatments, because treatments need to be proved before they become widely accepted. Proving takes time--sometimes decades that a sick person does not have. Someone who is dying from a complex illness need the option to pursue experimental treatments.

National guidelines are important, but need to be voluntary in order for sick people to have every chance to beat their illness.

Re: Treat Medicines Like Netflix Treats Shows

#117
post #87
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree insurance companies do harm, encouraging generics is probably a net benefit. Doctors, just like anyone else, respond to marketing, so they remember 'viagra' more easily than 'sildenafil' and write prescriptions accordingly. There's often no medical reason a generic isn't 100% suitable.

This surprised me a bit but generics are not always a de-branded version of a medication or the same formulation manufactured by a different company. Often times generic equivalents are different formulations (sometimes prior generation formulas and sometimes divergent formulas) that are considered to have the same effect. They nearly always do, but the weirdness of our stupid patent system means that sometimes they…

The inactive ingredients are different.

Re: Treat Medicines Like Netflix Treats Shows

#118
post #54

I'll just leave this here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_drug_development#Res...

Those numbers are sign of incredible waste and wrong incentives. The incentives in drug industry are towards developing patentable molecules and techniques, not for discovering new ways to cure things. There is too much overlapping development, not actual drug discoveries that provide net benefits for the society in exchange for patent monopoly. When some discovers a new chemical entity (NCE) and gets it approved, co…

But sometimes new chemicals do cure things. Or at the very least treat them well enough to make life worth living. I'd much rather exist in a world with AIDS medicine than a world where you just die, even if I'd rather have a cure.

I take different medicines that improve my quality of life. Without one I would never be able to realize one of my most valuable potentials. I could sit here and complain that we don't yet have the medical knowledge to indefinitely prolong life (which I do), but at the same time I have the humility to appreciate that being born even a few decades before in the long history of humanity and I would have had a much lesser life.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love for pharma to take a more efficient and satisfactory path, but I definitely recognize how life is better thanks to it.

Re: Treat Medicines Like Netflix Treats Shows

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> From the Center for Medicare and Medicaid Services. Please direct me to citations, not "try asking any X". > Go into any pharmacy and ask the pharmacist about “MTM” and gauge their reaction. MTM has nothing to do with insurance. > Look at outcomesMTM they are 1 of the 2 dominate insurance software vendors. outcomesMTM is not insurance software, it's pharmacy patient management software. > Here is another tidbit for…

You are asking me to cite things but what are you citing? You are simply saying “that’s not true”. >MTM has nothing to do with insurance. It’s required by law To be provided by insurers/health plans. If you refuse to talk to pharmacists or doctors about it, fine, you can read the law 42 CFR 423.153. In short insurance companies, must provide MTM services to patient covered in their plans. It is also the single bigges…

> You are asking me to cite things but what are you citing?

GP cannot prove a negative. If this software/system exists, the "burden of proof" is on you.

Re: Treat Medicines Like Netflix Treats Shows

#120
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some states allow pharmacists to substitute generic drugs for name brand prescriptions. To my knowledge they don't need the doctor's permission, and can make the change on their own unless the doctor specifically requests the name brand medicine for some reason.

Yes, those are "Dispense as Written" (DAW) Laws. http://beta.aan.com/globals/axon/assets/4698.pdf In most states, just using the trademark name instead of the generic is not sufficient (which makes sense, since the generic names are usually quite wordy and hard to remember) the doctor needs to specifically write "DAW" if a generic cannot be used.

This begs the question, under what circumstance would it be reasonable for a doctor to insist on "Dispense as Written"?
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