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A Vegan No More

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Re: A Vegan No More

#161

Post by gb »

sh1mmer wrote: post #123
dasil003 wrote: post #13

I'm all for radicalism since radicals are the main force questioning conventional wisdom. But the size of the vegan movement is totally out of proportion to its veracity. Take the whole "meat is murder" slogan. It's ridiculous from the outset and completely ignores our existence within the earth's ecosystem. I mean industrialized animal farming is fairly horrific, but the way to stop that is by advocating and paying…

Actually veganism is much older than the word 'vegan', which was coined in the 1940s. There are many eastern religions, such as Buddhism and Jainism, that encourage various forms of veganism (not all of them necessarily healthy diets) in their monastic orders. However, I think you are fairly liberally type casting vegans as single issue people. I would argue most vegans probably know about where their food comes from…

Actually most Buddhist monks depend on alms, so they aren't required to adhere to a vegan diet; they eat whatever the populace around the monastery offers. The only thing the Buddha ever said about eating meat is that one should not accept meat if they even suspect that the animal was killed specifically for them.

Re: A Vegan No More

#162

Post by widgetycrank »

dan00 wrote: post #129
jacquesm wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's psychologically complicated but it has to do with people telling you that you yourself are living a lie, and exposing that lie. That ties right in to 'ego' and self preservation. People do not like to have their core beliefs challenged in a credible way.

Yes. It's strange that people really think that what they're doing isn't connected in a way with their self-esteem, especially if they claiming all the time that they're doing it only for a better world. Wouldn't it be funny, if at the end there's no much difference between the SUV driver and the vegan.

I think people buy large SUVs under the false assumption of crashworthiness. For the price range they could have gotten sedans of similar prestige.

Re: A Vegan No More

#163

Post by steve19 »

abeppu wrote: post #53
kadavy wrote: post #3

I've never been a vegetarian, but I used to eat very little meat. The one mineral I rarely hear about when talking about a vegetarian or vegan diet is Zinc. It is nearly impossible to get enough Zinc without eating animal products. You can either eat nearly 3 pounds of peas, or little more than .5 ounces of canned oysters to get enough Zinc in your diet. Being low on Zinc weakens your immune system, and your libido,…

Oysters are actually a weird case for some vegans, in that a lot of the arguments made for veganism don't really apply. They don't have brains, so there's not really a chance for suffering, and they can be farmed in an eco-friendly way. Peter Singer, the animal rights philosopher that vegans are always quoting, has at points said that he doesn't object to eating oysters. http://www.slate.com/id/2248998/

Unfertilized chicken eggs don't have brains either, right? They are still "unclean".

Re: A Vegan No More

#164

Post by dejb »

alone wrote: post #11
dejb wrote: post #4

> I never expected this post to get so much attention. There is nothing more popular than an anecdote that appeals to people's pre-existing biases. Unfortunately there will be many for which this one story will provide the same weight of evidence as the entire China Study.

And there are many people who will wrongly think the China Study is something to pay attention to: http://www.google.com/#q=debunking+china+study

If a link to google search is what you think passes as debate then why not also check out

http://www.google.com/#q=debunking+evolution

The standard of debate is likely to be at a similar level. If you actually have an confidence in any of these 'debunkings' then why not point out one that you think will stand up to scrutiny?

Re: A Vegan No More

#165

Post by arethuza »

numix wrote: post #17
dasil003 wrote: post #13

I'm all for radicalism since radicals are the main force questioning conventional wisdom. But the size of the vegan movement is totally out of proportion to its veracity. Take the whole "meat is murder" slogan. It's ridiculous from the outset and completely ignores our existence within the earth's ecosystem. I mean industrialized animal farming is fairly horrific, but the way to stop that is by advocating and paying…

I often wonder where these veracious vegans are. I've yet to meet a vegan who has been evangelical, yet have met many omnivores who speak poorly of vegans. Is this a region specific problem?

I used to share a flat with one when I was at University - he used to do things like hand out leaflets in the morning with pictures of partly butchered animals as we prepared breakfast.

Apart from those idiosyncrasies he was quite a pleasant chap - I had to respect him when he received some extremely painful medical treatment and he refused an anesthetic because it might have been tested on animals.

Re: A Vegan No More

#166

Post by Egregore »

alecco wrote: post #158

When the doctor first told me that I had numerous vitamin and mineral deficiencies, that I was almost anemic, and my B12 was so low she wanted to give me an injection immediately, I refused to believe her. That's poor diet. Vegan or not. B12 is made by bacteria (not animals or plants) and industrial meat is full of it because we feed livestock with putrified waste foods while industrialized vegetables are unnaturally…

Actually it's recommended for vegans to take suppliments of B12, you can read more about different aspects of vegan health at http://www.veganhealth.org/

Re: A Vegan No More

#167

Post by RyanMcGreal »

I was never a vegan, but I was a pretty strict vegetarian for about ten years. I started to rethink it when my doctor told me I was seriously deficient in iron, B12 and folic acid.

The first time I ate meat again, a lamb shawarma, it was freaking delicious. I felt my body scream "YES!" Now I incorporate some non-industrial, locally sourced meat, cheese and eggs into a predominantly plant-based diet, and it seems to be working well for my overall health.

Unfortunately a bread bar (exactly what it sounds like) operated by a Slow Food chef recently opened near my house, and I find myself eating altogether too much fresh baked bread.

Re: A Vegan No More

#168

Post by dejb »

jacquesm wrote: post #10

It's interesting how strong peer pressure is in groups like vegans to continue to press someone in to a lifestyle that clearly is not to their best interest. It reminds me of religious cults, and other 'us or them' styled groups. Very scary.

> It's interesting how strong peer pressure is in groups like vegans to continue to press someone in to a lifestyle that clearly is not to their best interest.

Given the levels of obesity in developed nations you could argue that just about everybody is being pressed 'in to a lifestyle that clearly is not to their best interest'.

> It reminds me of religious cults, and other 'us or them' styled groups.

I really don't think it is fair to generalise from a single blog post. It really feels like you are drawing on a collection of stereotypes about what you consider to be 'weird people' for this to have such an impact. Or do you have any other examples you can share with us?

Re: A Vegan No More

#169

Post by dejb »

jacquesm wrote: post #65
muriithi wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She even says that she and her family has received threats! What would make someone do that simply because the lady has started eating meat?

It's psychologically complicated but it has to do with people telling you that you yourself are living a lie, and exposing that lie. That ties right in to 'ego' and self preservation. People do not like to have their core beliefs challenged in a credible way.

If one single story like this can challenge someone's confidence on their veganism then obviously they are quite insecure about their position. Similarly if one single story like this is given such a high level of prominence (was top on HN no less) by the majority who have an opposing view then surely this also indicates a certain insecure desire for any scraps of evidence to support ones position. No?

Re: A Vegan No More

#170

Post by oops »

zaphar wrote: post #6
dejb wrote: post #4

> I never expected this post to get so much attention. There is nothing more popular than an anecdote that appeals to people's pre-existing biases. Unfortunately there will be many for which this one story will provide the same weight of evidence as the entire China Study.

The point of the story is that not everyone can do a Vegan diet and still be healthy. While this is just one example it does demonstrate the principle that meat is a necessary and vital part of some peoples healthy eating. I sometimes wonder if Vegans worry about Lions on the savannah eating antelope. Do they want prevent that as well. Humans are Omnivores. We are built to get nutrients from both meat and plantlife.…

> I sometimes wonder if Vegans worry about Lions on the savannah eating antelope. Do they want prevent that as well.

I think vegans are more concerned with how animals are treated, not simply that they are killed and eaten.

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