Can fake names create bias in interviewing? • Hacker News Board

Re: Can fake names create bias in interviewing?

#81

Post by manfredo » Thu, Mar 07, 2019, 9:40 PM UTC

pesmhey wrote: post #78

nostromo wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just based on a plain reading of the Civil Rights Act of 64, I don't see how this practice is considered legal. > It shall be an unlawful employment practice for an employer 2) to limit, segregate, or classify his employees in any way which would deprive or tend to deprive any individual of employment opportunities or otherwise adversely affect his status as an employee, because of such individual's race, color, reli…

The spirit of the Civil Rights movement was to address lingering injustices that particularly affected the descendants of victims of the Atlantic slave trade. For a couple of decades, the spirit and intent of the law were coalescing, via affirmative action and other bias-busting policy. I think that someone along your thought process could make a strong case that the spirit of the Civil Rights movement has changed, t…

Granted plenty of people that supported the Civil Rights may have done so because they wanted equal protection to work both ways; they wanted society to uphold the Golden rule of, "treat others how you want to be treated". One group agrees not to discriminate against others in exchange for the assurance that they will not be discriminated against themselves.

To those people, affirmative action would seem a lot like a bait an switch and a clear violation of the intent of the law.

Re: Can fake names create bias in interviewing?

#82

Post by nostromo » Thu, Mar 07, 2019, 9:42 PM UTC

pesmhey wrote: post #78

nostromo wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just based on a plain reading of the Civil Rights Act of 64, I don't see how this practice is considered legal. > It shall be an unlawful employment practice for an employer 2) to limit, segregate, or classify his employees in any way which would deprive or tend to deprive any individual of employment opportunities or otherwise adversely affect his status as an employee, because of such individual's race, color, reli…

The spirit of the Civil Rights movement was to address lingering injustices that particularly affected the descendants of victims of the Atlantic slave trade. For a couple of decades, the spirit and intent of the law were coalescing, via affirmative action and other bias-busting policy. I think that someone along your thought process could make a strong case that the spirit of the Civil Rights movement has changed, t…

Can you clarify your last sentence? What am I being so obtuse about?

To me the Civil Rights Act was a very well written law -- something we don't have enough of anymore. Nearly everyone can read and understand its intent.

If we as a people decide that we want to overturn the Civil Rights Act to allow differing treatment based on race in order to achieve social justice -- then the right way to do that is by having a debate in congress and passing new laws.

Re: Can fake names create bias in interviewing?

#83

Post by peruvian » Thu, Mar 07, 2019, 9:44 PM UTC

manfredo wrote: post #56

peruvian wrote: post #45

Heh. I have a very Hispanic name but I am white/European. This is fairly common where I am originally from and even more in other places. I've definitely gotten weird looks when I go from phone screen -> in person interview. Unfortunately Americans, even progressive ones, have a very narrow view of what "Hispanic" means.

Same boat here. I am Cuban, but basically completely white. A lot of people don't realize that Hispanic is a cultural designation that encompasses multiple races. Many are of native or mixed Central and South American descent. Many are black, descendants of Africans. Many are white. Peru has a large Japanese diaspora, so I guess it's possible to have Asian Hispanics as well (though I've never met anyone that identifi…

Yep. One of our presidents was Japanese-Peruvian, and I went to school in Peru with a few people with Japanese first and last names.

Re: Can fake names create bias in interviewing?

#84

Post by manfredo » Thu, Mar 07, 2019, 9:45 PM UTC

claudiawerner wrote: post #77

nostromo wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just based on a plain reading of the Civil Rights Act of 64, I don't see how this practice is considered legal. > It shall be an unlawful employment practice for an employer 2) to limit, segregate, or classify his employees in any way which would deprive or tend to deprive any individual of employment opportunities or otherwise adversely affect his status as an employee, because of such individual's race, color, reli…

The "very clear language" you speak of actually created gaps in the law which ostensibly still abided by the letter. For instance, the SEP article on affirmative action[0] notes that employers, faced with the new act, would remove the pipeline which funneled black people into maintenance jobs but add a requirement such that anyone over a certain number of years at the company would not be allowed to transfer to anoth…

There's a lot of holes in this logic. For one Asians are hit hardest by affirmative action, but we're historically victims of racism themselves.

Not to mention this had a big risk of empowering people to act in what many would probably consider a bigoted manner. Many whites feel that they face injustice due to their race [1]. Under your proposed moral framework many whites would be justified in discriminating in favor of other whites. Remember, you don't have a monopoly over other people's ideas of who is and isn't benefitting from injustice.

1. https://www.npr.org/2017/10/24/559604836/majority-of-white-a...

Re: Can fake names create bias in interviewing?

#85

Post by cimmanom » Thu, Mar 07, 2019, 9:46 PM UTC

sokoloff wrote: post #73

cimmanom wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TFA is about the company assigning randomized pseudonyms to candidates.

I understand. Whether the candidate, a researcher, or my in-house recruiter mangles the name, the end effect is the same.

Why? I can get being pissed if someone's misrepresenting their identity (or annoyed if they're representing it inconsistently) as a job seeker.

But AFAICT this is about letting the candidate's performance be mentally/emotionally isolated from all the baggage that comes along with their history. It doesn't even preclude screening people out based on history before this anonymized interview.

You can then put it back together with the other information you have about them once you've formed an opinion of their technical abilities without preconceptions about them.

Re: Can fake names create bias in interviewing?

#86

Post by oarabbus_ » Thu, Mar 07, 2019, 9:48 PM UTC

mattigames wrote: post #2

The obsession with biases is a form of bias, you not only have to check what fake name you are submitting, you must make sure the people reading it are the same, that the mood of the people reading its the same and that their way of thinking hasn't changed much; such psychological uncertainties are the same reason psychology experiments are hard to replicate. Not to mention the randomness of things like if your resum…

I'm certainly stereotyping and assuming (and we know what they say about assuming)

But I'd be willing to put money down you're in the demographic who tends not to fall victim to negative biases. I'll put $50 on that.

Re: Can fake names create bias in interviewing?

#87

Post by manfredo » Thu, Mar 07, 2019, 9:48 PM UTC

peruvian wrote: post #83

manfredo wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same boat here. I am Cuban, but basically completely white. A lot of people don't realize that Hispanic is a cultural designation that encompasses multiple races. Many are of native or mixed Central and South American descent. Many are black, descendants of Africans. Many are white. Peru has a large Japanese diaspora, so I guess it's possible to have Asian Hispanics as well (though I've never met anyone that identifi…

Yep. One of our presidents was Japanese-Peruvian, and I went to school in Peru with a few people with Japanese first and last names.

Interesting! Out of curiosity, how integrated were the Japanese students into Peruvian society? Did they fluently speak Spanish? Did they consider themselves Hispanic (though I think "Hispanic" is more of a term North Americans apply to South and Central Americas, so apologies if this last question is hard to answer)?

Re: Can fake names create bias in interviewing?

#88

Post by School-Cotton » Thu, Mar 07, 2019, 9:52 PM UTC

kristianc wrote: post #23

manfredo wrote: post #20

I suspect many companies wouldn't use this as it would make affirmative hiring policies more difficult. For example, recruiters at my company curate lists of names that are majority female, black, or Hispanic (pulled from the census bureau) in order to try and determine which candidates are diverse. Recruiters at my company aren't explicitly told to hit certain quotas, but they are given larger bonuses for diverse hi…

This comment reminds me somewhat of the Oxford and Cambridge interviewing processes. They have names and educational backgrounds to hand, and it's well known that all things being equal, tutors would always rather go for a kid from a state echool / underprivileged / non traditional background over one that went to a top public school. It's not just a matter of hitting targets - the alternative is that everyone who ge…

I think you should point out what "public school" means in Britain, otherwise there is a 100% chance that any Americans who aren't aware of that definition will misunderstand your comment.

(In the US, the term "public school" means what you mean by "state school", afaict).

Re: Can fake names create bias in interviewing?

#89

Post by burtonator » Thu, Mar 07, 2019, 9:56 PM UTC

manfredo wrote: post #20

I suspect many companies wouldn't use this as it would make affirmative hiring policies more difficult. For example, recruiters at my company curate lists of names that are majority female, black, or Hispanic (pulled from the census bureau) in order to try and determine which candidates are diverse. Recruiters at my company aren't explicitly told to hit certain quotas, but they are given larger bonuses for diverse hi…

> I suspect many companies wouldn't use this as it would make affirmative hiring policies more difficult. For example, recruiters at my company curate lists of names that are majority female, black, or Hispanic (pulled from the census bureau) in order to try and determine which candidates are diverse.

" I have a dream that ... one day [we will] live in a nation where [people are] not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."

Re: Can fake names create bias in interviewing?

#90

Post by claudiawerner » Thu, Mar 07, 2019, 10:00 PM UTC

manfredo wrote: post #84

claudiawerner wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "very clear language" you speak of actually created gaps in the law which ostensibly still abided by the letter. For instance, the SEP article on affirmative action[0] notes that employers, faced with the new act, would remove the pipeline which funneled black people into maintenance jobs but add a requirement such that anyone over a certain number of years at the company would not be allowed to transfer to anoth…

There's a lot of holes in this logic. For one Asians are hit hardest by affirmative action, but we're historically victims of racism themselves. Not to mention this had a big risk of empowering people to act in what many would probably consider a bigoted manner. Many whites feel that they face injustice due to their race [1]. Under your proposed moral framework many whites would be justified in discriminating in favo…

>Under your proposed moral framework many whites would be justified in discriminating in favor of other whites.

I haven't proposed any moral framework, I only wanted to elucidate the positions on affirmative action and that it's not nearly as simple as the law itself being twisted to bad ends, but that it comes from a set of difficulties introduced as a result of the law being introduced. When I said "some philosophers", I meant it. If you'd like to read the paper I'm referring to in particular, it's Boxill (1972)[0].

>“We know that all blacks, lower class, middle class, and upper class, have been wronged by racial injustice” (Boxill 1984, 164). In Boxill 1978, 251, he argues that the correlation between “preferences received” and “compensation deserved,” though not perfect, is very high. A recent piece by D. W. Haslett (2002) also conceives of affirmative action as a way to neutralize “tainted” advantages enjoyed by whites, although he concedes that the neutralization is “extremely rough” (83). James Sterba carries on the tradition, striving to refute the claim that affirmative action distributes its benefits and burdens in an up-side down way, rewarding well–off blacks and placing the costs on unoffending whites. Well–off blacks are no less victims of discrimination, he insists, and nearly every white has unjustly benefited from racial discrimination (Sterba 2009, 89–90. Fiscus 1992 echoes Justice Brennan’s argument and generalizes it.

[0] https://www.pdcnet.org/soctheorpract/content/soctheorpract_1...