The $2M Urinal: Why Hard Work Doesn’t Cut It (2018) • Hacker News Board

Re: The $2M Urinal: Why Hard Work Doesn’t Cut It (2018)

#71

Post by potta_coffee » Thu, Mar 07, 2019, 5:13 PM UTC

drcode wrote: post #35

Foobar8568 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Modern art (or just art), it's more a money laundry, tax evasion, asset management scheme than anything else.

I think those play a smaller role, for the following reason: If modern art was primarily about the social aspects, you'd expect most modern art to be stuff like a perfectly blank canvas or a urinal, because those are direct signals of the "coolness" of the artist (who else but a charismatic person can sell a blank canvas?) If art was more about tax evasion, etc, then modern art would probably be more photorealistic o…

But most modern art is not much better than blank canvas, etc.

Re: The $2M Urinal: Why Hard Work Doesn’t Cut It (2018)

#72

Post by baud147258 » Thu, Mar 07, 2019, 5:18 PM UTC

drcode wrote: post #40

wazoox wrote: post #32

Contemporary art is a sophisticated form of money laundering for the very rich. As it almost completely exempt from taxation, it's an ideal vehicle, relatively fungible and open to crazy speculation. The crazy financiarisation of our world made many collectible objects prices skyrocket (see old cars, art, etc). But Contemporary art is the best of all, because, contrary to ancient art or old ferraris, its supply is un…

Can you provide documentation for these supposed tax benefits? (I'm genuinely curious) AFAIK there are no tax benefits at the point of buying the art, and cap gains benefits are no different than stocks, real estate, etc.

If I remember right, in France arts pieces are not taxed as other assets (like flats) are.

edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solidarity_tax_on_wealth#Basis

The English version is lacking some exempted elements compared to the French version, where works of arts are explicitly cited.

Re: The $2M Urinal: Why Hard Work Doesn’t Cut It (2018)

#73

Post by mdorazio » Thu, Mar 07, 2019, 5:19 PM UTC

tomp wrote: post #58

duado wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The end goal is that everything gets donated and written off. Here's the basic scheme: * 10 rich guys buy 100 paint splotch canvases from a dude who wears black and smokes cigarettes * they keep 90 canvases in their basement and sell 10 of them back and forth to each other for increasing sums of money, paying taxes along the way * when the prices are at $20 million per painting, they donate all of them, including the…

This implies that donated art basically has an arbitrary valuation (set by "experts" based on some not really free or transparent "market"). Is this true? How is this handled for other assets?

See here [1]. It's based on qualified appraisal and/or valuation of similar works at known auctions.

[1] https://www.journalofaccountancy.com/issues/2010/jul/2009209...

Re: The $2M Urinal: Why Hard Work Doesn’t Cut It (2018)

#74

Post by umvi » Thu, Mar 07, 2019, 5:22 PM UTC

paganel wrote: post #67

Whenever people discuss about contemporary art I get reminded of these incredibly poignant Soviet war paintings [1] which manage to partially describe what the atrocities on the Eastern Front meant for the people involved, but which are nevertheless a lot less well-known compared to contemporary art "darlings" like Jackson Pollock whose works don't tell me absolutely anything and who had his career propped up by the…

Obviously very subjective, but modern art seems like a case of emperor's new clothes to me, a humble engineer.

When I was in college I would see art around campus take the form of random metal shapes welded together, concrete blobs, or Pollock-esque splatters and shake my head.

How can you judge a category of art for which there are no rules?

I can look at Michelangelo's "The David" and be awed to the core at how he was able to replicate lifelike looking veins in marble. It's difficult for me to even fathom his skill level but I recognize that it is much, much higher than mine.

But a sideways urinal with some marker on it? Anyone with no skill can do random things with random items and call it art.

"Any sufficiently advanced art is indistinguishable from garbage"

Re: The $2M Urinal: Why Hard Work Doesn’t Cut It (2018)

#75

Post by tonyedgecombe » Thu, Mar 07, 2019, 5:24 PM UTC

"The simple truth is we have no way of objectively determining the value of any work of art or the performance of its maker."

It's not so different from software really.

Re: The $2M Urinal: Why Hard Work Doesn’t Cut It (2018)

#76

Post by habosa » Thu, Mar 07, 2019, 5:25 PM UTC

cheerlessbog wrote: post #38

wazoox wrote: post #32

Contemporary art is a sophisticated form of money laundering for the very rich. As it almost completely exempt from taxation, it's an ideal vehicle, relatively fungible and open to crazy speculation. The crazy financiarisation of our world made many collectible objects prices skyrocket (see old cars, art, etc). But Contemporary art is the best of all, because, contrary to ancient art or old ferraris, its supply is un…

Exempt from taxation? Isn't it subject to capital gains?

A lot of art is "donated" by putting it in a museum. However this is basically a massive tax writeoff for someone watching and securing your art for you! And it still confers all the status on you because it will have a plaque saying "generously donated from the Richie Rich Foundation"

Re: The $2M Urinal: Why Hard Work Doesn’t Cut It (2018)

#77

Post by auiya » Thu, Mar 07, 2019, 5:30 PM UTC

drcode wrote: post #47

cl0ckt0wer wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a great podcast on it: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/02/09/584555705/epis...

Sorta, though arguably that podcast says the exact opposite: That taxes are high for art transactions and that people have to develop additional schemes to avoid them: I can buy GOOG stock without sales tax, but apparently you DO have to pay sales tax in a Southeby's auction. I'm guessing that asabjorn's comment is more accurate: People donate art at a fraudulently-inflated price to lower their tax liability.

> I can buy GOOG stock without sales tax

Right you pay brokerage fee at time of purchase and capital gains tax at time of sale though, which is often larger than sales tax.

Re: The $2M Urinal: Why Hard Work Doesn’t Cut It (2018)

#78

Post by IanCal » Thu, Mar 07, 2019, 5:36 PM UTC

duado wrote: post #57

drcode wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you provide documentation for these supposed tax benefits? (I'm genuinely curious) AFAIK there are no tax benefits at the point of buying the art, and cap gains benefits are no different than stocks, real estate, etc.

The end goal is that everything gets donated and written off. Here's the basic scheme: * 10 rich guys buy 100 paint splotch canvases from a dude who wears black and smokes cigarettes * they keep 90 canvases in their basement and sell 10 of them back and forth to each other for increasing sums of money, paying taxes along the way * when the prices are at $20 million per painting, they donate all of them, including the…

Thank you, this is the first time I've seen anyone explain this including the last part, other things I've seen leave that out and without it there's no benefit.

Re: The $2M Urinal: Why Hard Work Doesn’t Cut It (2018)

#79

Post by drcode » Thu, Mar 07, 2019, 5:42 PM UTC

potta_coffee wrote: post #71

drcode wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think those play a smaller role, for the following reason: If modern art was primarily about the social aspects, you'd expect most modern art to be stuff like a perfectly blank canvas or a urinal, because those are direct signals of the "coolness" of the artist (who else but a charismatic person can sell a blank canvas?) If art was more about tax evasion, etc, then modern art would probably be more photorealistic o…

But most modern art is not much better than blank canvas, etc.

That's exactly what I'm saying: The more ludicrous the art, the more likely it is that the product is not the art itself, but the artist.

Re: The $2M Urinal: Why Hard Work Doesn’t Cut It (2018)

#80

Post by circlefavshape » Thu, Mar 07, 2019, 5:43 PM UTC

The daftest thing I've seen in an art museum

https://www.tate.org.uk/art/artworks/floyer-monochrome-till-...

(a receipt from a supermarket)

I've also seen some stuff in modern art museums (e.g. Anselm Kiefer's stuff in the Guggenheim in Bilbao) that has absolutely blown me away

AFAICS all art scenes are conversations. Individual things people say are not necessarily understandable if you're not familiar with the conversational context (and even if you were you might think that some of the things they say are stupid)