Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The $2M Urinal: Why Hard Work Doesn’t Cut It (2018)

behavioralscientist.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 188 posts

Re: The $2M Urinal: Why Hard Work Doesn’t Cut It (2018)

#51

Post by mcguire »

mannykannot wrote: post #45
mortenjorck wrote: post #2

> The art world is a wonderful illustration of the First Law of Success: 'Performance drives success, but when performance can’t be measured, networks drive success.' This is a thought-provoking reframing of "it's not what you know; it's who you know."

The thing is, though, that performance can be measured, to a degree: if a 'forger' produces an original work that passes as the work of an acknowledged master, then, in purely performance terms, the two artists could be regarded as being at the same level, and if the art world were only interested in performance, it would not care about provenance. Works of art are more than just the objects themselves, however. In p…

The art world assigned zero value to the original Fountain and $17 million to one of a number of reproductions.

Re: The $2M Urinal: Why Hard Work Doesn’t Cut It (2018)

#52

Post by wazoox »

cheerlessbog wrote: post #38
wazoox wrote: post #32

Contemporary art is a sophisticated form of money laundering for the very rich. As it almost completely exempt from taxation, it's an ideal vehicle, relatively fungible and open to crazy speculation. The crazy financiarisation of our world made many collectible objects prices skyrocket (see old cars, art, etc). But Contemporary art is the best of all, because, contrary to ancient art or old ferraris, its supply is un…

Exempt from taxation? Isn't it subject to capital gains?

In most countries, it's less taxed than other forms of capital (in Europe, it benefits from reduce VAT, no tariffs, and many other advantages) .

Re: The $2M Urinal: Why Hard Work Doesn’t Cut It (2018)

#53

Post by mcguire »

astazangasta wrote: post #16
dwaltrip wrote: post #10

> But I do mean to say that there is no quality in art. > The simple truth is we have no way of objectively determining the value of any work of art or the performance of its maker. Ehh... Not having objective, quantitative metrics is not the same thing as having no quality what so ever. It seems very strange (and utterly wrong) to claim there is not even a smidgen of underlying truth or insight about the world found…

>Ehh... Not having objective, quantitative metrics is not the same thing as having no quality what so ever. I am shocked that in 2019 there are adults walking around with this epistemology. Every quantitative metric is an exercise in narrative. The notion of objectivity is an appealing construct in a world constructed by second hand observations, but alas, it remains just another implement in the narrative toolkit.

E pur si muove.

Re: The $2M Urinal: Why Hard Work Doesn’t Cut It (2018)

#54

Post by pastor_elm »

drcode wrote: post #5

I feel like modern art market is primarily a way for a subsegment of rich people to buy certain intangible goods: These are people that feel lonely, and have low self esteem... They really would like to socialize with cool and charismatic people, and the "modern art scene" is basically a very pricey matchmaking service for them to make friends and go to parties with people that fit this description (i.e. the artists)

It's also a way for rich people to involve themselves comfortably in some non-profit sector (go look at a board for a major art museum), and to become 'tastemakers.'

The desire to be an influencer is very natural, and this is the easiest path for you if you've got a lot of cash to burn.

Re: The $2M Urinal: Why Hard Work Doesn’t Cut It (2018)

#55

Post by pastor_elm »

drcode wrote: post #40
wazoox wrote: post #32

Contemporary art is a sophisticated form of money laundering for the very rich. As it almost completely exempt from taxation, it's an ideal vehicle, relatively fungible and open to crazy speculation. The crazy financiarisation of our world made many collectible objects prices skyrocket (see old cars, art, etc). But Contemporary art is the best of all, because, contrary to ancient art or old ferraris, its supply is un…

Can you provide documentation for these supposed tax benefits? (I'm genuinely curious) AFAIK there are no tax benefits at the point of buying the art, and cap gains benefits are no different than stocks, real estate, etc.

not directly on topic. but he's an article on how holding art can help shield your finances:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/12/style/david-libbie-mugrab...

Re: The $2M Urinal: Why Hard Work Doesn’t Cut It (2018)

#56

Post by mannykannot »

mcguire wrote: post #51
mannykannot wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, though, that performance can be measured, to a degree: if a 'forger' produces an original work that passes as the work of an acknowledged master, then, in purely performance terms, the two artists could be regarded as being at the same level, and if the art world were only interested in performance, it would not care about provenance. Works of art are more than just the objects themselves, however. In p…

The art world assigned zero value to the original Fountain and $17 million to one of a number of reproductions.

Indeed - when history is an aspect of value, values will change over time. I would be very interested if the replicas' value holds up, though not particularly surprised if it does, as my previous post was not intended to be a description of how things work, but more of a speculation of how things might work if performance was valued above all else.

Re: The $2M Urinal: Why Hard Work Doesn’t Cut It (2018)

#57

Post by duado »

drcode wrote: post #40
wazoox wrote: post #32

Contemporary art is a sophisticated form of money laundering for the very rich. As it almost completely exempt from taxation, it's an ideal vehicle, relatively fungible and open to crazy speculation. The crazy financiarisation of our world made many collectible objects prices skyrocket (see old cars, art, etc). But Contemporary art is the best of all, because, contrary to ancient art or old ferraris, its supply is un…

Can you provide documentation for these supposed tax benefits? (I'm genuinely curious) AFAIK there are no tax benefits at the point of buying the art, and cap gains benefits are no different than stocks, real estate, etc.

The end goal is that everything gets donated and written off. Here's the basic scheme:

* 10 rich guys buy 100 paint splotch canvases from a dude who wears black and smokes cigarettes

* they keep 90 canvases in their basement and sell 10 of them back and forth to each other for increasing sums of money, paying taxes along the way

* when the prices are at $20 million per painting, they donate all of them, including the 90 in the basement (which appreciated just by exchanging the 10) for $2 billion in combined tax writeoffs

Re: The $2M Urinal: Why Hard Work Doesn’t Cut It (2018)

#58

Post by tomp »

duado wrote: post #57
drcode wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you provide documentation for these supposed tax benefits? (I'm genuinely curious) AFAIK there are no tax benefits at the point of buying the art, and cap gains benefits are no different than stocks, real estate, etc.

The end goal is that everything gets donated and written off. Here's the basic scheme: * 10 rich guys buy 100 paint splotch canvases from a dude who wears black and smokes cigarettes * they keep 90 canvases in their basement and sell 10 of them back and forth to each other for increasing sums of money, paying taxes along the way * when the prices are at $20 million per painting, they donate all of them, including the…

This implies that donated art basically has an arbitrary valuation (set by "experts" based on some not really free or transparent "market"). Is this true? How is this handled for other assets?

Re: The $2M Urinal: Why Hard Work Doesn’t Cut It (2018)

#59

Post by drcode »

duado wrote: post #57
drcode wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you provide documentation for these supposed tax benefits? (I'm genuinely curious) AFAIK there are no tax benefits at the point of buying the art, and cap gains benefits are no different than stocks, real estate, etc.

The end goal is that everything gets donated and written off. Here's the basic scheme: * 10 rich guys buy 100 paint splotch canvases from a dude who wears black and smokes cigarettes * they keep 90 canvases in their basement and sell 10 of them back and forth to each other for increasing sums of money, paying taxes along the way * when the prices are at $20 million per painting, they donate all of them, including the…

I agree that makes 100% sense.

Re: The $2M Urinal: Why Hard Work Doesn’t Cut It (2018)

#60

Post by mcguire »

dwaltrip wrote: post #10

> But I do mean to say that there is no quality in art. > The simple truth is we have no way of objectively determining the value of any work of art or the performance of its maker. Ehh... Not having objective, quantitative metrics is not the same thing as having no quality what so ever. It seems very strange (and utterly wrong) to claim there is not even a smidgen of underlying truth or insight about the world found…

This article is directly relevant to the tech community. It's axiomatic that technical performance is very difficult to measure. It's also axiomatic that it's not what you know, but who.
Post reply on HN