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A Vegan No More

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Re: A Vegan No More

#121

Post by linuxhansl »

I went to a 10 day meditation retreat a few years ago. As you can imagine I met a lot of interesting people there.

One guy actually was a body builder and vegetarian. He told me that he had problems with being anemic as well. So his doctor told him to have a steak once a month, which helped him a lot.

There is a reason why we can chew and digest both plants and animal products and meat.

While personally I lean towards a vegetarian diet (for reasons of health, morality, and sustainability) any such bias has to be paired with "wisdom".

Generally if we know how to listen our bodies will let us know what they need. I mostly eat whatever I want, whenever I want it. It somehow naturally ends up being mostly vegetarian, with diary product, and occasionally meats and (yes) some candy.

Edit: I do avoid all low fat products and products with sugar replacements.

Re: A Vegan No More

#122

Post by philwelch »

tomstuart wrote: post #108
manish wrote: post #94

I simply can't understand why eating meat is wrong, when eating plant is not wrong. I feel they are same.

Is eating a human the same?

No, because humans are capable of reciprocating moral obligations.

Veganism is really difficult to avoid if you're a utilitarian, and really easy to avoid if you're not.

Re: A Vegan No More

#123

Post by sh1mmer »

dasil003 wrote: post #13

I'm all for radicalism since radicals are the main force questioning conventional wisdom. But the size of the vegan movement is totally out of proportion to its veracity. Take the whole "meat is murder" slogan. It's ridiculous from the outset and completely ignores our existence within the earth's ecosystem. I mean industrialized animal farming is fairly horrific, but the way to stop that is by advocating and paying…

Actually veganism is much older than the word 'vegan', which was coined in the 1940s. There are many eastern religions, such as Buddhism and Jainism, that encourage various forms of veganism (not all of them necessarily healthy diets) in their monastic orders.

However, I think you are fairly liberally type casting vegans as single issue people. I would argue most vegans probably know about where their food comes from than you, as well as the affects that other parts of their lifestyle have on the environment.

From my own personal experience, I know there is exactly one vegan organic standard (which is the VON's "Stockfree" certification a sub-certification of British Soil association's UK-5 standard). That means if I eat organic produce living in the US a large amount of the fertilizer used is probably of animal origin. However, I'm between the rock and the hard place because I either choose harm the environment (and animals in other ways) or accept that some of the organic fertilizer will be manure. I didn't set up the system it isn't my fault. However I will choose to opt-out where-ever I sensibly can.

In my experience people become vegan for a variety of reasons, but most of those reasons are because they are conscientious, caring people. Like all groups there are a vocal minority who wish to harass other who disagree with them, but I don't like be tarred with that brush any more than you like being accused of murder.

Re: A Vegan No More

#124

Post by _3u10 »

pyre wrote: post #93
makmanalp wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate the sentiment that you should know what you eat, but don't understand this mentality that I observe many vegetarian / vegans have. Oh no, gelatin snuck in your food, you're not a proper vegan / vegetarian anymore! Beat yourself up about it! It oddly reminds me of those tiny silly inconsequential rules that you're supposed to pay attention in some religions. Like no alcohol. What does that have anything t…

It's not about 'rules' or 'regulations.' For some it's about morality. If I find it immoral to eat a dead animal, then why would it be 'ok' because it's 'only chicken broth?' I've still supported (with my money) the death of an animal. [ Please don't break down into some 'but animals die all the time in the wild,' argument. It's slightly different when we created the animal just for the purpose of killing it for meat…

I'll be downvoted into oblivion for saying this but there are lots of ways that the average vegetarian or vegan every day supports killing animals for their own personal benefit. Animals are killed every day so that we can live a better life. It's not a big deal. Get over it or get off the grid.

I hope you don't drive on roads, or use anything produced by the petrochemical industry.

Hell, somewhere between your computer and HN a switch, server or piece of critical infrastructure is powered by burning dead animals. Or perhaps, it's just the plastic sheath on your ethernet cable that was made from petrochemicals.

I hope you're seriously considering refraining from using the internet because of the animals that were killed to make it.

Also, have you EVER considered how many field animals die to produce vegetables? You think a combine cares if there is a mouse in the way? Now, lets say you rely on a good shipped by trucking, train or ship, well then odds are somewhere along the line something was diesel powered, as we all know most diesel comes from oil fields, oil to the best of our knowledge contains dead animals.

If you're living you're consuming dead animals. Stop feeling bad about it and start enjoying the taste of meat. They died so you can live. It's the way of life, you think a tiger ponders the morality of eating a human?

Not eating meat is basically the sorriest excuse for making a difference I've seen, it's basically on par with believing recycling makes a difference. It's a small step to take with the aim of moralizing to everyone else how big of a difference you're making. Also, how many animals had to die because of habitat loss to make that nice house you're living in?

Meat may be murder, but so what? Pay soldiers to kill the animals then they are just casualties and it's no longer murder. We can now say the animal died in combat.

Re: A Vegan No More

#125

Post by thret »

pyre wrote: post #99
scythe wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Please don't break down into some 'but animals die all the time in the wild,' argument. Yeah, let's not bring up a totally valid objection!

Please expand on how it's valid. [edit] I'm being open to debate here, but instead of debate, I get down votes? Is that really what HN is about? [/edit]

All animals are in one way or another a food source for other animals. It is in no way evil if an animal suffers unless that suffering is intentionally caused by a human. Our sin is in the mass production and mis-treatment of livestock while they are alive, not in the actual killing or eating.

Not eating mass-produced chicken or wearing leather makes sense, refusing free-range eggs or seafood does not. Not that there can be any real debate over an issue that predominately comes down to personal opinion. Always better to do what you are comfortable with and allow others to do the same.

Re: A Vegan No More

#126

Post by lox »

anthonyb wrote: post #79
lambda wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's difficult to find humanely raised meat? I just go to the farmer's market and buy it straight from the farmer who raises grass-fed free range cows. If I would like to verify, I can head to her farm and see how she raises the cows myself. Or I buy fish that are caught in sustainable ways, which have grown in their natural habitat and not subjected to any suffering beyond the catch (which is a necessary part of con…

If you live in Australia, you can also get kangaroo in most supermarkets. They're taken from the wild and killed with a high-powered rifle shot to the head (plus they're a native animal == less enivronmental damage) so they're about as guilt-free as you can get and still be eating meat.

I was under the impression that they are farmed now, although they are much friendlier to the environment per-head than cattle are.

Re: A Vegan No More

#127

Post by colanderman »

philwelch wrote: post #118
colanderman wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I sometimes wonder if Vegans worry about Lions on the savannah eating antelope. Do they want prevent that as well. I think it's safe to assume that you are against rape. Do you worry about dolphins in the ocean raping other dolphins?

Veganism implies a moral consideration for animals; opposition to rape doesn't.

Correction: veganism implies a moral consideration for animals from the point of view of humans. That is, most vegans believe it to be immoral to kill an animal because we as humans are (for the most part) capable of surviving without doing so, and we have the capacity to recognize this fact. True carnivores have neither of these traits and therefore are not morally obligated not to eat meat. Apologies if my analogy was not clear.

Re: A Vegan No More

#128

Post by rbranson »

gcheong wrote: post #116
wiredfool wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, don't buy industry. Buy local, humanely raised and killed animals. e.g., our turkey for thursday was processed today, at a family's small farm here. Our eggs come from the back yard. We've gotten pork from another local person who raises a few pigs on the side. FWIW, poultry seems to be the hardest to source for us, and maybe that's because the margins are so damn slim for the factory birds.

Humanely killed from whose perspective, ours or the animals'? I'm guessing if we could ask, most animals would prefer to live regardless of how painless their death would be or how enjoyable their lives were up until that point. I eat meat so I don't have a problem with killing animals for consumption, I'm just trying to understand the whole "humane killing" idea.

This gets into deeply philosophical, unanswerable questions. If we didn't bring them into the world as food, would they have existed in the first place? Is is it better that they existed for a shorter period of time than not at all? Do the animals we eat for food have the capacity of preferences? Due to their brain capacities, is it more humane to eat fish and birds versus pigs and cattle?

Re: A Vegan No More

#129

Post by dan00 »

jacquesm wrote: post #65
muriithi wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She even says that she and her family has received threats! What would make someone do that simply because the lady has started eating meat?

It's psychologically complicated but it has to do with people telling you that you yourself are living a lie, and exposing that lie. That ties right in to 'ego' and self preservation. People do not like to have their core beliefs challenged in a credible way.

Yes. It's strange that people really think that what they're doing isn't connected in a way with their self-esteem, especially if they claiming all the time that they're doing it only for a better world.

Wouldn't it be funny, if at the end there's no much difference between the SUV driver and the vegan.

Re: A Vegan No More

#130

Post by fleitz »

thret wrote: post #125
pyre wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please expand on how it's valid. [edit] I'm being open to debate here, but instead of debate, I get down votes? Is that really what HN is about? [/edit]

All animals are in one way or another a food source for other animals. It is in no way evil if an animal suffers unless that suffering is intentionally caused by a human. Our sin is in the mass production and mis-treatment of livestock while they are alive, not in the actual killing or eating. Not eating mass-produced chicken or wearing leather makes sense, refusing free-range eggs or seafood does not. Not that there…

You're inferring the feelings of an animal to make your judgement. No one actually knows the living preferences of a chicken or a cow.

Since you posit that huamn beings can infer the feelings of animals I posit that animals prefer to be factory farmed than spend what existence the animal has being constantly chased by predators. Therefore wearing leather and eating mass-produced chicken makes perfect sense and is in tune with the feelings of the animal.

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