A Vegan No More • Hacker News Board

Re: A Vegan No More

#71

Post by gxti » Tue, Nov 23, 2010, 5:31 AM UTC

This is a perfect example of why one must use the utmost caution in allowing a choice to become part of one's identity. When the time comes for that belief to be challenged you will fight not because it is true, but because it is perceived as an attack on the self. You will ignore reason and fight to save that piece of yourself from annihilation like a feral animal cornered by a predator.

You are not a vegan. You are not an atheist. You are not the car you drive or the contents of your wallet. You are a human being, and nothing that is within your power to change should be exempt from introspection.

Re: A Vegan No More

#72

Post by jacquesm » Tue, Nov 23, 2010, 5:31 AM UTC

autarch wrote: post #12

Ginny Messina, who is a dietitian and actually has some qualifications to talk about this stuff, wrote a great response to this blog post - http://www.theveganrd.com/2010/11/do-ex-vegans%E2%80%99-stor...

I think she misses out on that people need to justify stuff for themselves and those that do this justification loudly (for others to hear) are going to persist in that pattern no matter what their decisions.

Personally I think that being a vegan, vegetarian or omnivore is an entirely personal thing and you don't need to blast it out like that. Also so that you can change your mind without having to do mental double takes like that.

Re: A Vegan No More

#73

Post by jacquesm » Tue, Nov 23, 2010, 5:33 AM UTC

davidmathers wrote: post #70

This post has some great lines in it: * As a revolutionary feminist and anti-imperialist, veganism seemed to be yet another way I could fight the injustices we are facing. * Capitalism has turned food, and especially grains, into a commodity, a weapon of war, and a way to make a profit, instead of the inalienable right it should be. The way to prevent hunger is not to feed the starving masses the food we currently fe…

> On the other hand her 3 paragraphs about the 3 kinds of bad people (the frauds, the foolish know-it-alls, and the evidence deniers) sparked instant recognition and made me realize that those are the exact people that irritate me more than just about anyone else in this world.

She seems to qualify for at least two of those three categories.

Re: A Vegan No More

#74

Post by chaitanya » Tue, Nov 23, 2010, 5:35 AM UTC

araneae wrote: post #59

chaitanya wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> because she's a vegetarian. There's a difference between a vegan and a vegetarian: a vegetarian doesn't consume meat, but does consume diary products and eggs (egg-but-not-meat eaters like me are sometimes also known as eggetarians). A vegan, on the other hand, doesn't consume any animal products at all. I have been vegetarian (or rather eggetarian) all my life, and I have had no such problems. Also, I know many ve…

Yes, I know the difference. I was merely saying that her symptoms sound identical to my friend's, that's all. Just like some people seem to be successful as vegans, others may be unsuccessful at being vegetarians.

I have never known anyone who's been unsuccessful at being a vegetarian (and about half my friends and family are vegetarian).

Edit: the only time I have known someone switch to a non-veg diet (after becoming an adult) is when they started going to the gym and were keen on building muscle mass.

Re: A Vegan No More

#75

Post by pyre » Tue, Nov 23, 2010, 5:42 AM UTC

ced wrote: post #39

dasil003 wrote: post #13

I'm all for radicalism since radicals are the main force questioning conventional wisdom. But the size of the vegan movement is totally out of proportion to its veracity. Take the whole "meat is murder" slogan. It's ridiculous from the outset and completely ignores our existence within the earth's ecosystem. I mean industrialized animal farming is fairly horrific, but the way to stop that is by advocating and paying…

But the size of the vegan movement is totally out of proportion to its veracity. That's a weird statement. When is "movement size" ever a good indicator of truth? Anyway, veganism is not about "veracity", it's about a different set of moral beliefs, or a particular diet, or... You speak of vegans as if it was a monolithic group, and you paint it with a negative brush because of a few crazy individuals. That's like di…

  > Really? All of the vegans I know care a lot
  > about eating a balanced and healthy diet (at
  > least, more than the average non-vegan).

Not necessarily. I know a number of vegans that don't necessarily eat that healthy.

The thing that irks me is when vegans proclaim that the 'vegan diet' will make everyone healthier, cure obesity, etc. There are plenty of unhealthy foods that are perfectly vegan. I say this as a vegan myself. I see these people as 'hurting the movement' because they are spreading un-truths, even if they are well-intentioned (and the messengers believe the false message).

[Edit] Don't take this as a claim that the 'vegan diet' (I use quotes because it is such as broad term) is necessarily unhealthy. It's just that there are many foods that are completely vegan, yet unhealthy:

  - Skittles (since they removed gelatin as an ingredient)
  - Oreos
  - Sugar
  - Soda
  - A lot of potato chip varieties
  - Transfats (i.e. burned oils)

(note: That I can only confirm things like Skittles or Oreos in the US. I know that in different countries the formulas are different. Skittles may still have gelatin in Canada, for example) [/Edit]

Re: A Vegan No More

#76

Post by dejb » Tue, Nov 23, 2010, 5:47 AM UTC

zaphar wrote: post #6

dejb wrote: post #4

> I never expected this post to get so much attention. There is nothing more popular than an anecdote that appeals to people's pre-existing biases. Unfortunately there will be many for which this one story will provide the same weight of evidence as the entire China Study.

The point of the story is that not everyone can do a Vegan diet and still be healthy. While this is just one example it does demonstrate the principle that meat is a necessary and vital part of some peoples healthy eating. I sometimes wonder if Vegans worry about Lions on the savannah eating antelope. Do they want prevent that as well. Humans are Omnivores. We are built to get nutrients from both meat and plantlife.…

> The point of the story is that not everyone can do a Vegan diet and still be healthy.

When you hear a story about how some substance 'cured cancer' do you instantly conclude that the claims are necessarily correct - even for the cured person in the story? Would you expect the story to become popular on HN? The problem with one-off anecdotes like this is that they don't even conclusively demonstrate anything.

> I sometimes wonder if Vegans worry about Lions on the savannah eating antelope.

Dude that is a really ignorant and insulting thing to say.

> Humans are Omnivores. We are built to get nutrients from both meat and plantlife.

And here you demonstrate your limited grasp of evolution which a resort to a naturalistic fallacy.

> Our metabolisms work best when we eat both in moderation.

Actually the research demonstrates otherwise.

> A Vegan lifestyle makes it harder to eat healthy not easier

That is trivially true in a society where adding animal products to many foods is routine. If even 20% of the population was vegan it would be trivial to follow a vegan diet.

Re: A Vegan No More

#77

Post by MikeCapone » Tue, Nov 23, 2010, 5:49 AM UTC

Personally, I can't wait until we grow meat without having to kill animals who can feel pain, distress, etc, to get it. It won't come one day too soon.

Re: A Vegan No More

#78

Post by pyre » Tue, Nov 23, 2010, 5:53 AM UTC

dasil003 wrote: post #13

I'm all for radicalism since radicals are the main force questioning conventional wisdom. But the size of the vegan movement is totally out of proportion to its veracity. Take the whole "meat is murder" slogan. It's ridiculous from the outset and completely ignores our existence within the earth's ecosystem. I mean industrialized animal farming is fairly horrific, but the way to stop that is by advocating and paying…

  > Meanwhile, as vegans focus on the elimination of
  > meat from our diets, they practically ignore the
  > industrialized food that wreaks direct reproducible
  > havoc on our metabolisms causing epidemic obesity 
  > and diabetes.

This is a bit of a strawman. You're basically saying that if you can find any fault with someone that is vegan, then their entire message is null and void. Think about it. You've stated that vegans aren't perfect because while eliminating one 'bad' thing from their diet they are forgetting a completely different one. That's your argument.

You're also only commenting on the effects to humans, while ignoring the effects to animals (which is an important factor for some/most vegans).

In general though, if you want to blame something, blame capitalism, and a lack of care for proper nutrition by the general public. Capitalism drives food companies to become ever more industrialized, and do whatever necessary to increase profits (fiddle with the sodium-fat-sugar content of their products to attempt to make people feel the need to eat more, and never feel that they have satisfied their hunger). The consumer can combat this with their pocket book, but the consumer just doesn't seem to care.

Re: A Vegan No More

#79

Post by anthonyb » Tue, Nov 23, 2010, 5:54 AM UTC

lambda wrote: post #21

cjbprime wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Take the whole "meat is murder" slogan. There are, you'll be pleased to hear, many vegans with stronger ethical arguments than "meat is murder". Such as, in summary: * unnecessary extreme suffering is unjustifiable. * some non-human animals (notably the ones we eat most of) are as capable of suffering at the physical level as humans are. We shouldn't discount their suffering just because they aren't members of homo…

It's difficult to find humanely raised meat? I just go to the farmer's market and buy it straight from the farmer who raises grass-fed free range cows. If I would like to verify, I can head to her farm and see how she raises the cows myself. Or I buy fish that are caught in sustainable ways, which have grown in their natural habitat and not subjected to any suffering beyond the catch (which is a necessary part of con…

If you live in Australia, you can also get kangaroo in most supermarkets. They're taken from the wild and killed with a high-powered rifle shot to the head (plus they're a native animal == less enivronmental damage) so they're about as guilt-free as you can get and still be eating meat.

Re: A Vegan No More

#80

Post by mturmon » Tue, Nov 23, 2010, 5:55 AM UTC

Evgeny wrote: post #23

cjbprime wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Take the whole "meat is murder" slogan. There are, you'll be pleased to hear, many vegans with stronger ethical arguments than "meat is murder". Such as, in summary: * unnecessary extreme suffering is unjustifiable. * some non-human animals (notably the ones we eat most of) are as capable of suffering at the physical level as humans are. We shouldn't discount their suffering just because they aren't members of homo…

* unnecessary extreme suffering is unjustifiable.* I'm wondering, what is the vegan's position on eating: fish; oysters/mussels; squid, octopus; crabs etc.

If you have time, sit back and read this excellent essay by David Foster Wallace on eating lobster, which examines the issues from a humane, non-dogmatic perspective:

http://www.gourmet.com/magazine/2000s/2004/08/consider_the_l...

This was the title essay in one of DFW's essay compilations.