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A Vegan No More

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61–70 of 275 posts

Re: A Vegan No More

#61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Take the whole "meat is murder" slogan. There are, you'll be pleased to hear, many vegans with stronger ethical arguments than "meat is murder". Such as, in summary: * unnecessary extreme suffering is unjustifiable. * some non-human animals (notably the ones we eat most of) are as capable of suffering at the physical level as humans are. We shouldn't discount their suffering just because they aren't members of homo…

I wouldn't really call those arguments. They assume that animals can suffer without giving an argument that animals can suffer. Whether animals can suffer is the core issue which should be addressed, and is not addressed by these statements. I believe suffering is caused by, roughly, difference between one's preferences and reality. But animals do not have preferences (this is controversial. will you agree that if th…

> I wouldn't really call those arguments. They assume that animals can suffer without giving an argument that animals can suffer. Whether animals can suffer is the core issue which should be addressed, and is not addressed by these statements.

No, you're decades out of date. It is established fact, on all sides of the animal rights argument, that animals suffer and feel pain. I'd be shocked if you could find a single credible source arguing otherwise at this point.

This shouldn't be surprising to anyone. If you kick a dog, which you shouldn't, it'll exhibit all the same physiological responses that we do to being kicked; it will be in obvious pain and distress, and measurably so; it might cry, it'll hide, it'll be scared of you in the future. What else is there?

> But animals do not have preferences

No, that's patently ridiculous. Many adult animals, and most especially other primates, hold long-term preferences and have tested at the cognitive level of young human children (toddlers). Again, why would you possibly expect anything else?

> You haven't even said what you think suffering is.

There are books upon books written about animal suffering, and I was giving bullet points, so not exhaustively defining my terms is hardly a fair criticism. You could read Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_rights#Animal_suffering

Re: A Vegan No More

#62
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not vegan, but I do advocate a more reasonable approach to meat. By eating less meat, you can afford to eat better quality meat. I've heard a few good suggestions that balance ethics, pragmatism, and nutrition, either following the rule "vegan before 6", so you save up meat and dairy products only for dinner, or "meat x3", where you eat high quality meat only three meals a week, with the rest vegetarian, which I'…

Thank you for making that point. False dichotomies annoy the heck out of me. I encourage people who are not to try and eat vegetarian (never mind vegan - and BTW I am neither) for one week as an intellectual exercise. The issue is not whether one eats meat, but how totally unthinking our meat consumption has become - bacon for breakfast, ham sandwich for lunch, burger for dinner. The question isn't whether to be vega…

For bonus points, keep track of hidden meat, like gelatin in 'yogurt' and marshmallows, isinglass in your wine, or bonechar in your sugar, or lard, oyster sauce, fish sauce or chicken broth snuck into otherwise vegetarian dishes.

Re: A Vegan No More

#63

I'm all for radicalism since radicals are the main force questioning conventional wisdom. But the size of the vegan movement is totally out of proportion to its veracity. Take the whole "meat is murder" slogan. It's ridiculous from the outset and completely ignores our existence within the earth's ecosystem. I mean industrialized animal farming is fairly horrific, but the way to stop that is by advocating and paying…

"Opting out of meat entirely does nothing to change the industry, because most people will always eat some meat if they can afford it."

FWIW, my opting out of meat entirely has motivated at least a few others to do the same. On a larger scale, I've seen an increase over the last 10 years in the number of vegetarian restaurants and vegetarian offerings in general-menu restaurants. I'd say there has been some change in the industry, driven by people who have opted out of meat entirely.

Even if you're skeptical about just how much change any one person can effect I fail to see how one might go about changing an industry while not at the same time demonstrating commitment to the ideals feeding that desire for change.

"Meanwhile, as vegans focus on the elimination of meat from our diets, they practically ignore the industrialized food that wreaks direct reproducible havoc on our metabolisms causing epidemic obesity and diabetes"

Really? I've not seen that. If anything the vegans I've encountered, either personally or through books and magazines, seem quite zealous about replacing meat with quality nutrition. In fact, I don't see how one can be a vegan and not have to bend over backwards to select food carefully.

Re: A Vegan No More

#64

I'm all for radicalism since radicals are the main force questioning conventional wisdom. But the size of the vegan movement is totally out of proportion to its veracity. Take the whole "meat is murder" slogan. It's ridiculous from the outset and completely ignores our existence within the earth's ecosystem. I mean industrialized animal farming is fairly horrific, but the way to stop that is by advocating and paying…

I agree with most of what you have to say, but I want to make a note about this:

Opting out of meat entirely does nothing to change the industry, because most people will always eat some meat if they can afford it.

I think opting out does a few things. It puts pressure on restaurants to offer alternatives to meat, so we're not all forced to eat it because it's the only healthy option. It pushes our culture to give people a choice. Honestly, all I really want as a vegan is for people to have a good choice every day, at each meal, about how much/what kind of animal products they consume. Right now in most places there just aren't choices, because 99% of people have a "well, I'll just keep eating what I always have" mentality.

Also, opting out of meat does get me into conversations regularly about the meat industry. The fact that I only eat very specific kinds of meat in specific occasions opens up conversations with other people about when and why they eat meat. I don't care if people eat meat on purpose, for their own reasons, but I do care that they wolf down pounds of it every day for no particular reason because it's what's put in front of us. My opting out creates a context for other people to consider opting out.

And given that's my motivation, I'm pretty careful about how I engage people. I don't shame people, I don't push them. I honestly don't give a shit what they decide. I just like having the options all out there.

Note: I consider myself vegan. I eat meat and dairy sometimes. I eat vegetables, and vegetables are grown with animal products. Meat and dairy are not the basis of my diet. I eat a plant-based diet, so I consider myself vegan. You can call this "reform vegan" to the "orthodox" if you like. But anyone who's really looked at the realities of the situation (including the OP) comes to understand that there is no such thing as 100% vegan, and that what matters most is the health of the whole ecology.

Re: A Vegan No More

#65

It's interesting how strong peer pressure is in groups like vegans to continue to press someone in to a lifestyle that clearly is not to their best interest. It reminds me of religious cults, and other 'us or them' styled groups. Very scary.

She even says that she and her family has received threats! What would make someone do that simply because the lady has started eating meat?

It's psychologically complicated but it has to do with people telling you that you yourself are living a lie, and exposing that lie. That ties right in to 'ego' and self preservation.

People do not like to have their core beliefs challenged in a credible way.

Re: A Vegan No More

#66
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> because she's a vegetarian. There's a difference between a vegan and a vegetarian: a vegetarian doesn't consume meat, but does consume diary products and eggs (egg-but-not-meat eaters like me are sometimes also known as eggetarians). A vegan, on the other hand, doesn't consume any animal products at all. I have been vegetarian (or rather eggetarian) all my life, and I have had no such problems. Also, I know many ve…

Yes, I know the difference. I was merely saying that her symptoms sound identical to my friend's, that's all. Just like some people seem to be successful as vegans, others may be unsuccessful at being vegetarians.

And others are unsuccessful at being omnivores.

There are a host of other nutrition problems that may be completely unrelated to whether meat is in one's diet. It's not very fair to blame vegetarianism, which is usually considered a pretty safe diet.

Re: A Vegan No More

#67
post #45
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's difficult to find humanely raised meat? I just go to the farmer's market and buy it straight from the farmer who raises grass-fed free range cows. If I would like to verify, I can head to her farm and see how she raises the cows myself. Or I buy fish that are caught in sustainable ways, which have grown in their natural habitat and not subjected to any suffering beyond the catch (which is a necessary part of con…

The "tastier" organic myth is a myth in at least some cases. Double blind taste tests of 2 halves of the same product reveal that the half presented as "organic" is often chosen as being "tastier", despite being identical to it's other "non organic" half. IMHO, he organic food "movement" is marketing targeted at the guilty conscience of the well-heeled consumer of organic foods.

lambda never mentions anything about Organic. Organic is not the same as humanely raised meat, nor hormone free. And, IMHO, Organic standards are so varied and in many cases silly that the green label isn't even a tell for a desirable product by my terms.

In my experience, texture is very noticeable when comparing "supermarket" meat vs locally raised, hormone-free meat.

As far as Veganism goes: I rather not take a vitamin supplement--it seems unnatural.

LOL>

Re: A Vegan No More

#68
For what it's worth, I don't think of people who eat diets supposedly free of animal products as "vegan". I think of them as "fundamentalist". To me, veganism is about creating a culture where we don't abuse animals. It happens that part of that work for me involves mostly not eating meat. But sometimes eating meat is exactly what I need to do.

Eating meat, in specific ways, can be a way to connect with people, a way to nourish myself... there are lots of ways in which eating meat can lead directly or indirectly to my helping to lessen animal abuse.

And I think that's profoundly vegan. I think the OP feels the same way, but she's apparently not as comfortable hijacking the word "vegan" as I am.

The way she uses the word, and the way most people use the word, makes it useful only to marginalize people. What a waste of a word. I'd use it to inspire people.

Like the mormon who might occasionally share a beer with their sister, in the spirit of love and family and togetherness (important mormon values)... a vegan can eat meat. These labels do not have to be so cut and dry.

Re: A Vegan No More

#69
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humans are Omnivores. We are built to get nutrients from both meat and plantlife. Our metabolisms work best when we eat both in moderation. Please let's not resort to "appeal to nature", because that can certainly be abused both ways (and frequently is). There are certainly all sorts of sketchy vegetarian and vegan bogus arguments about why not eating animals is natural (and certainly eating dairy and chicken eggs is…

> We weren't built for anything Swap out built with adapted and I think you'll have a hard time finding a dentist that agrees with that.

[deleted]

Re: A Vegan No More

#70
This post has some great lines in it:

* As a revolutionary feminist and anti-imperialist, veganism seemed to be yet another way I could fight the injustices we are facing.

* Capitalism has turned food, and especially grains, into a commodity, a weapon of war, and a way to make a profit, instead of the inalienable right it should be. The way to prevent hunger is not to feed the starving masses the food we currently feed to animals (excess food production and the resulting food dumping is one of the causes of hunger in the first place), but for the chronically hungry people to throw off the shackles of neo-imperialism and to gain back control of their local food systems.

* It was shocking to realize I had been expounding on the need to transform agriculture and farming without even knowing the bare minimum of what it takes to keep an ecosystem healthy.

Really? Was it really shocking? Really? I feel like I'm in a missing scene from Monty Python's Life of Brian.

On the other hand her 3 paragraphs about the 3 kinds of bad people (the frauds, the foolish know-it-alls, and the evidence deniers) sparked instant recognition and made me realize that those are the exact people that irritate me more than just about anyone else in this world.

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