Ask HN: Current and former FB employees, what's the other side to the story? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: Current and former FB employees, what's the other side to the story?

#121

Post by chromecanary » Thu, Mar 07, 2019, 2:42 AM UTC

fbemployee1234 wrote: post #115

121789 wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think he's just saying that folks in developing countries get more value of the service (developed countries have much more competition), not that they benefit from tracking more.

This. Poor countries use Facebook for really valuable actions like talking to loved ones. In the states we have alternatives and can afford a few bucks a month for a service. But in poor countries, Facebook is often a lifeline (sometimes literally, in the case of crises)

You hear a lot of "STOP SHOWING ME ADS ON _____. I'LL PAY FOR THIS. STOP TRACKING ME. I'D LOVE A PAID VERSION OF ______"

And every single time I laugh at how much those statements reek of privilege. It's always from people who live in the biggest, richest cities of the country and are usually white+young+have steady incomes.

If Facebook started offering ad-free versions, within a year it would become a website only for the SF/NY/London elite kids.

Imagine if these services were paid: Facebook = $40/month. Whatsapp = $30/mo, Instagram = $30/mo. Youtube = $30/mo. Google Search = $50/mo. Google Maps = $30/mo.

Sure, you're probably rich enough that you can afford a crazy amount to subscribe to every possible website. But the majority of the world cannot - and that's why ads are not just an unnecessary distraction but instead a necessary way to life on the Internet.

Re: Ask HN: Current and former FB employees, what's the other side to the story?

#122

Post by chromecanary » Thu, Mar 07, 2019, 2:44 AM UTC

basch wrote: post #97

warp_factor wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The utility_function of facebook (what it maximizes for) is for your attention grab. This in itself makes the product bad. They will hack the endorphin in your brain in order to keep you hooked. the utility_function of email is utilitarian. No email server wants to keep their user hooked on their emails.

I wish the person who replied didnt delete their comment. They asked you if you felt the same way about netflix. Are products who want to keep people hooked, and have all their attention universally bad?

Obviously so. If you're into music/movies/arts you should come up with a crappier product. I hope you don't come up with tunes that are addictive and get people hooked to your music.

Same with sports teams: I hope they all play crappy so that people are not hooked onto them.

/s

Re: Ask HN: Current and former FB employees, what's the other side to the story?

#123

Post by chromecanary » Thu, Mar 07, 2019, 2:48 AM UTC

jmathai wrote: post #69

docker_up wrote: post #8

Most of what the press reports is a distortion of the truth, or making something sound worse than it really is. Sure there are issues but all companies have them, just like Google, Amazon, etc. There are a lot of good people doing good work here, and connecting the world for the better. You don't hear about the 99.99% of the good things because that won't encourage clicks for the news rags. If the press took an inter…

This should be the top comment. Let's take a current headline: "Facebook is facing criticism for not allowing users to opt out of a feature that lets people look them up using their phone number or email address." There are so many ways to explain how this could come to be and the vast majority of those would not be attributed to malicious intent. It's not like PMs at Facebook are sitting around wondering how they ca…

I have huge huge grips with tech news reporting. NYT/WaPo are reasonably decent usually. You should look at how unbalanced recent tech articles are:

Look at this horrendous article by Josh Constine: https://techcrunch.com/2019/02/28/facebook-research-teens/

> "So 18 percent of research testers were teens. It was only less than 5 percent when Facebook got caught. "

Very very colloquial term plus hugely biased+loaded terms like 'caught' are being used. Even basic Journalistic standards are not being met.

This isn't a new article. That's an opinion piece (and I am not disagreeing with his facts but with how opinionated his presentation is).

There's a difference between "GSW lose to Celtics 129-95" and "Low energy GSW show disinterest in the game and get walloped by Celtics 129-95".

And Josh is one of the more popular tech 'journalists'. So you can imagine how problematic the whole industry is. There's no "news". There's just opinion pieces - all of which are from a single elite SF/NY/LA bubble

Re: Ask HN: Current and former FB employees, what's the other side to the story?

#124

Post by chromecanary » Thu, Mar 07, 2019, 2:50 AM UTC

badfrog wrote: post #59

librish wrote: post #54

It does feel like a lot of the news are misrepresented or skewed. Take CA as an example. This was FB acting as a developer portal and the following happened (to the best of my knowledge) using Apple as a substitute. 1. Your friend downloads a slick email app from company X on the AppStore 2. The OS warns you with a big blocking screen that this app wants to read all emails from your address book, your friend clicks a…

> the main piece of them criticism is that perhaps users shouldn't be trusted with a permission this broad (which had already been fixed 4 years earlier). Agreed. This broad permission was also widely known well before CA. IMO the only reason the CA story blew up is that lots of people were upset about the 2016 election and wanted somebody to target their anger toward.

Traditional news media gave the election to Hillary. And post-election they found it convenient to blame it all on Facebook.

Facebook certainly isn't influential enough to swing 20 points of an entire US Prez election all on its own (It obviously contribute though)

Re: Ask HN: Current and former FB employees, what's the other side to the story?

#125

Post by chromecanary » Thu, Mar 07, 2019, 2:52 AM UTC

chromecanary wrote: post #123

jmathai wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This should be the top comment. Let's take a current headline: "Facebook is facing criticism for not allowing users to opt out of a feature that lets people look them up using their phone number or email address." There are so many ways to explain how this could come to be and the vast majority of those would not be attributed to malicious intent. It's not like PMs at Facebook are sitting around wondering how they ca…

I have huge huge grips with tech news reporting. NYT/WaPo are reasonably decent usually. You should look at how unbalanced recent tech articles are: Look at this horrendous article by Josh Constine: https://techcrunch.com/2019/02/28/facebook-research-teens/ > "So 18 percent of research testers were teens. It was only less than 5 percent when Facebook got caught. " Very very colloquial term plus hugely biased+loaded t…

The latest from Josh Constine: https://techcrunch.com/2019/03/06/facebook-living-room/

"Perhaps this will just be more lip service in a time of PR crisis for Facebook."

"Now Facebook might finally see the dollar signs within privacy."

Shamefully opinionated comments again from Josh.

Re: Ask HN: Current and former FB employees, what's the other side to the story?

#126

Post by notacoward » Thu, Mar 07, 2019, 3:26 AM UTC

chromecanary wrote: post #121

fbemployee1234 wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. Poor countries use Facebook for really valuable actions like talking to loved ones. In the states we have alternatives and can afford a few bucks a month for a service. But in poor countries, Facebook is often a lifeline (sometimes literally, in the case of crises)

You hear a lot of "STOP SHOWING ME ADS ON _____. I'LL PAY FOR THIS. STOP TRACKING ME. I'D LOVE A PAID VERSION OF ______" And every single time I laugh at how much those statements reek of privilege. It's always from people who live in the biggest, richest cities of the country and are usually white+young+have steady incomes. If Facebook started offering ad-free versions, within a year it would become a website only f…

I'll add that as soon as you charge more than zero you'll lose revenue to some VC-funded copycat with no hope or intent of ever becoming profitable before the early stakeholders sell the worthless husk to some sucker. Those are the "ethical standards" so many here are fighting for.

Re: Ask HN: Current and former FB employees, what's the other side to the story?

#127

Post by thisisit » Thu, Mar 07, 2019, 4:39 AM UTC

Back at my hometown, a small village, we had a gangster. He made tons of money using his illegal empire. But he also took care of everyone around him. Even those who were not involved with criminal operations were taken care of.

The press wondered how could these people trust this gangster? What's their thoughts/feelings about smuggling etc being reported daily?

The answer was - "This so-called gangster has built orphanages and donated to religious causes. He has been net positive to society. While this gangster does some bad things, the press is harsher on him. Media knowingly writes bad stories because they are jealous of his success or have hidden agenda. He just wants to do the right things and his heart is in the right place. But his is human and makes mistakes. And before you label him as the worst do look at those other gangsters. They are just as bad, if not worse, than our hero."

This is a story which repeats itself over and over again.

Re: Ask HN: Current and former FB employees, what's the other side to the story?

#128

Post by rwl » Thu, Mar 07, 2019, 8:03 AM UTC

chromecanary wrote: post #121

fbemployee1234 wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. Poor countries use Facebook for really valuable actions like talking to loved ones. In the states we have alternatives and can afford a few bucks a month for a service. But in poor countries, Facebook is often a lifeline (sometimes literally, in the case of crises)

You hear a lot of "STOP SHOWING ME ADS ON _____. I'LL PAY FOR THIS. STOP TRACKING ME. I'D LOVE A PAID VERSION OF ______" And every single time I laugh at how much those statements reek of privilege. It's always from people who live in the biggest, richest cities of the country and are usually white+young+have steady incomes. If Facebook started offering ad-free versions, within a year it would become a website only f…

> Sure, you're probably rich enough that you can afford a crazy amount to subscribe to every possible website. But the majority of the world cannot - and that's why ads are not just an unnecessary distraction but instead a necessary way to life on the Internet.

You seem to be assuming that "life on the Internet" requires these services, and requires them to bring in the insane revenues that they bring in through targeted advertising. It doesn't. The Internet and the Web had thriving communities before any of them existed, and there are meaningful alternatives to everything you mentioned that don't surveil their users. The only thing that makes any of these services feel required is network effects and the attendant monopoly power. People use them instead of the alternatives because they're "free", and that's where their friends are and where the content is. They actively enforce this power, by buying competitors, investing in slicker UIs, preventing other services from providing a different interface to the same data, and not providing any meaningful way for users to export their data and delete it from the company's servers. Wanting an alternative to this situation needn't be an expression of privilege.

Re: Ask HN: Current and former FB employees, what's the other side to the story?

#129

Post by ForHackernews » Thu, Mar 07, 2019, 9:03 AM UTC

lordCarbonFiber wrote: post #109

ForHackernews wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There were plenty of internet forums and even IRC and Usenet before Facebook. Maybe FB has pushed out other, better, places for people to gather and communicated?

There is a lot of value in a marketplace for discovery and consistent interface. Let us not echo the sentiment of the infamous poster suggesting dropbox would fail because "who wouldn't just spin up an ftp server backed by source control". From the stance of democratizing the internet, for better or worse, I don't think we can sit here and deny the formative role Facebook played in getting people shut out from the ne…

I guess I would argue that Facebook is not "the net" -- it's AOL 2.0. You're probably right that has value of its own, but it's not the same value as an open internet, or the promise of what was once the worldwide web.

Re: Ask HN: Current and former FB employees, what's the other side to the story?

#130

Post by forgottenpass » Thu, Mar 07, 2019, 2:53 PM UTC

jmathai wrote: post #69

docker_up wrote: post #8

Most of what the press reports is a distortion of the truth, or making something sound worse than it really is. Sure there are issues but all companies have them, just like Google, Amazon, etc. There are a lot of good people doing good work here, and connecting the world for the better. You don't hear about the 99.99% of the good things because that won't encourage clicks for the news rags. If the press took an inter…

This should be the top comment. Let's take a current headline: "Facebook is facing criticism for not allowing users to opt out of a feature that lets people look them up using their phone number or email address." There are so many ways to explain how this could come to be and the vast majority of those would not be attributed to malicious intent. It's not like PMs at Facebook are sitting around wondering how they ca…

>It's not like PMs at Facebook are sitting around wondering how they can exploit people's privacy.

I'd bet serious money there are. They won't let themselves think of it in terms "exploiting privacy", but use some friendly-sounding framing like "leveraging data collection" which is still inherently inseparable from the exploitation of privacy.