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Ask HN: Current and former FB employees, what's the other side to the story?

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Re: Ask HN: Current and former FB employees, what's the other side to the story?

#91

Post by deanmoriarty »

badfrog wrote: post #89
deanmoriarty wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I said in a previous comment, I'd be curious if this "wasting time instead of contributing to society" applies also to other entertainment companies that quite literally waste thousands of hours a year of the average weak person, such as Netflix, which instead is typically seen as providing very positive value to society.

Yeah, it kind of implies that you should spend 100% of your waking time being "productive", which is not realistic. Everybody needs time to recharge, and depending on your personality, that can be anything from going to a bar with friends, to playing recreational sports, to watching TV, to scrolling through the internet.

Yeah. I ask this because I want to be able to understand the personality of whomever is writing these comments, before deciding if I should consider or simply dismiss them.

If the person will just say "year, clearly Netflix is just as negative for society", then that will be enough for me to completely dismiss this person's opinions on the entire matter, since Netflix, just as Facebook, has provided me with massive positive value, even if, at times, it made me jealous of seeing the life of other people as presented in some TV shows, again just as Facebook.

Re: Ask HN: Current and former FB employees, what's the other side to the story?

#92

Post by warp_factor »

deanmoriarty wrote: post #88
warp_factor wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree with all of those, but more specifically with >> 1) The core product is good and useful to people/society. Definitely not. If you had to put a numerical value on Facebook impact on society, it would be extremely negative I think. You grab attention of weak users, that end up spending so much time on your platform doing nothing instead of contributing in things that would benefit society. You create an illu…

As I said in a previous comment, I'd be curious if this "wasting time instead of contributing to society" applies also to other entertainment companies that quite literally waste thousands of hours a year of the average weak person, such as Netflix, which instead is typically seen as providing very positive value to society.

While I also wouldn't put Netflix on a pedestal, I think it is in a very different category than Facebook:

Netflix, you indeed lose your time but you don't have that feeling that everyone else is having a wonderful time while you are losing yours on the couch. Netflix (as TV) provides some healthy entertainment.

Facebook on the other hand provides entertainment by broadcasting how perfect other people's life are. And this is exactly what pushes people to depression and suicide. Ask people you know and most of them will admit that after their daily visit on Facebook they feel a bit burned-out. This effect is also magnified because you now always keep in mind that you should post a "perfect picture" on Instagram to please your followers.

Re: Ask HN: Current and former FB employees, what's the other side to the story?

#93

Post by throwawaymath »

warp_factor wrote: post #63
fbemployee1234 wrote: post #36

Throwaway for obvious reasons. Opinions are my own. I joined in the last year. I had major issues with FB before, reflecting typical HN user stance. I joined because I was curious and their promises sounded like an amazing place to work. And it is. They treat us better than any other company in terms of autonomy and input. Everyone has a tea seat at the table. And what I’ve seen, the external perceptions don’t match…

Let me disagree on this. I think You joined Facebook, and they showed you the "Employee side" where everything is beautiful, with free food and free toys and you became convinced. Yes, they treat employees super well, nobody contradicts that. But how does it change anything related to how bad the product is (and all the bad things it does to people that use it a lot). It is easy to let the beautiful inner side of Fac…

I get that you have a fundamental disagreement with the opinions expressed by this commenter, but please don’t invalidate their experience like that. Saying, “Sorry but no” is a flippant way of dismissing their experience without actually being sorry for doing it.

It’s frankly not for you to say “what happened” when it comes to their opinion, which is based on what they’ve witnessed and experienced. Note that this entire thread does not concern facts, it concerns impressions and opinions. This isn’t the place to “Actually, ...” what someone else has said.

It strikes me as particularly condescending that you’re telling this person they only feel this way because of “free food and free toys.”

Re: Ask HN: Current and former FB employees, what's the other side to the story?

#94

Post by untog »

librish wrote: post #90
untog wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some clarifications: - Facebook allowed people to share their data and the data of their friends with third parties. So there was no requirement for me to use My Digital Life, or to accept a single permission prompt, in order for the researcher to have access to my data. - people didn't "want to share their data", they wanted their quiz results. Was every bit of the data they provided required in order to get the qui…

But this is similar to any phone/email/contact book app will allow you to upload or manage your address book. Your friends could leak your email address or phone number by installing a malicious app and granting the permission, do you blame Google/Apple for this?

For one, Google and Apple would remove an app from the App/Play Store if it was abusing those privileges. My Digital Life would never have passed App Store approval in the first place, since it in no way demonstrated why it needed the amount of personal information it requested. Facebook clearly had no such monitoring.

Not to mention the scale of data is radically different. I'm not over the moon about someone uploading my phone number to an unknown service, but it's mild compared to someone uploading my phone number, friend network, wall posts, photos shared, likes, etc. etc. etc.

Re: Ask HN: Current and former FB employees, what's the other side to the story?

#95

Post by deanmoriarty »

warp_factor wrote: post #92
deanmoriarty wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I said in a previous comment, I'd be curious if this "wasting time instead of contributing to society" applies also to other entertainment companies that quite literally waste thousands of hours a year of the average weak person, such as Netflix, which instead is typically seen as providing very positive value to society.

While I also wouldn't put Netflix on a pedestal, I think it is in a very different category than Facebook: Netflix, you indeed lose your time but you don't have that feeling that everyone else is having a wonderful time while you are losing yours on the couch. Netflix (as TV) provides some healthy entertainment. Facebook on the other hand provides entertainment by broadcasting how perfect other people's life are. And…

This seems like a stretch to me and certainly diminishes the value of your opening original comment "... that end up spending so much time on your platform doing nothing instead of contributing in things that would benefit society".

Personally, I've just as well felt a bit burned-out by watching very popular TV shows on Netflix portraying the amazing lives of some people as I have with Facebook, and I would never say Netflix has caused negative value to my life, just as I wouldn't say that with Facebook, which in my personal experience has been one of the very best products of this decade.

Certainly agree to disagree.

Re: Ask HN: Current and former FB employees, what's the other side to the story?

#96

Post by bobosha »

warp_factor wrote: post #74
badfrog wrote: post #30

I worked at FB for three years as a software engineer. The people I worked with basically believed: 1) The core product is good and useful to people/society 2) Most of the negative articles about Facebook are based on some piece of truth but go out of their way to make things seem worse and more sinister than they really are 3) Zuck generally wants to do the right thing, but of course makes mistakes 4) Yes the compan…

I disagree with all of those, but more specifically with >> 1) The core product is good and useful to people/society. Definitely not. If you had to put a numerical value on Facebook impact on society, it would be extremely negative I think. You grab attention of weak users, that end up spending so much time on your platform doing nothing instead of contributing in things that would benefit society. You create an illu…

Would you apply that reasoning to watching porn, reading Harry Potter novels, bbq-ing etc?

Arguably, none of those are "contributing in things that would benefit society".

Re: Ask HN: Current and former FB employees, what's the other side to the story?

#97

Post by basch »

warp_factor wrote: post #79
basch wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"how bad the product is" What makes facebook so much worse than email? The fact that its default sorting algorithm is based on how relevant it thinks stories are to your interests? Any spread of false information could happen basically as easily through gmail. I dont see people getting mad at gmail and outlook for allowing chain letters to keep existing.

The utility_function of facebook (what it maximizes for) is for your attention grab. This in itself makes the product bad. They will hack the endorphin in your brain in order to keep you hooked. the utility_function of email is utilitarian. No email server wants to keep their user hooked on their emails.

I wish the person who replied didnt delete their comment. They asked you if you felt the same way about netflix. Are products who want to keep people hooked, and have all their attention universally bad?

Re: Ask HN: Current and former FB employees, what's the other side to the story?

#98

Post by badfrog »

warp_factor wrote: post #92
deanmoriarty wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I said in a previous comment, I'd be curious if this "wasting time instead of contributing to society" applies also to other entertainment companies that quite literally waste thousands of hours a year of the average weak person, such as Netflix, which instead is typically seen as providing very positive value to society.

While I also wouldn't put Netflix on a pedestal, I think it is in a very different category than Facebook: Netflix, you indeed lose your time but you don't have that feeling that everyone else is having a wonderful time while you are losing yours on the couch. Netflix (as TV) provides some healthy entertainment. Facebook on the other hand provides entertainment by broadcasting how perfect other people's life are. And…

> Netflix (as TV) provides some healthy entertainment.

It's far from obvious that TV is healthy. This article has some discussion of one potential downside and a rebuttal: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/does-tv-rot-your-...

Re: Ask HN: Current and former FB employees, what's the other side to the story?

#99

Post by ForHackernews »

docker_up wrote: post #39
ForHackernews wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are a lot of good people doing good work here, and connecting the world for the better. What does that actually mean? This sounds like a stock phrase from a press release. At its best, I guess you could say Facebook helps you kinda-sorta keep in touch with old friends you don't see that often. But I somehow suspect that's not what the majority of FB engineers are actually working on. Your point about the pres…

There are millions of people in various Facebook groups that are connected, based on things like illnesses, concerns, etc. The ability to share information and experiences and support each other are unparalleled. Just because you only use Facebook to connect with friends doesn't mean there are billions of people using it for other extremely beneficial purposes.

There were plenty of internet forums and even IRC and Usenet before Facebook. Maybe FB has pushed out other, better, places for people to gather and communicated?

Re: Ask HN: Current and former FB employees, what's the other side to the story?

#100

Post by warp_factor »

deanmoriarty wrote: post #95
warp_factor wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I also wouldn't put Netflix on a pedestal, I think it is in a very different category than Facebook: Netflix, you indeed lose your time but you don't have that feeling that everyone else is having a wonderful time while you are losing yours on the couch. Netflix (as TV) provides some healthy entertainment. Facebook on the other hand provides entertainment by broadcasting how perfect other people's life are. And…

This seems like a stretch to me and certainly diminishes the value of your opening original comment "... that end up spending so much time on your platform doing nothing instead of contributing in things that would benefit society". Personally, I've just as well felt a bit burned-out by watching very popular TV shows on Netflix portraying the amazing lives of some people as I have with Facebook, and I would never say…

I can see your point and definitely agree to disagree.

I think the perverse effect of Facebook are not fully well understood yet. But I'm fairly confident we will look back at this as something terrible. Facebook and Instagram also indirectly created the selfie generation, more self-centered than ever with the goal of getting more and more likes. I don't see that happening with TV.

And then there is the whole fee-speech//mass propaganda tool// privacy debate that I'm not even getting into.

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