Re-entry to US without backscatter or pat-down • Hacker News Board

Re: Re-entry to US without backscatter or pat-down

#31

Post by karzeem » Tue, Nov 23, 2010, 12:52 AM UTC

acabal wrote: post #10

Oh wow, I had no idea they scan you after re-entering the country. I'm flying to Chicago O'Hare from London Gatwick on Dec 2, and now I'm concerned about this. Does anyone know precisely what my rights are as a US citizen upon re-entering the country to avoid all of this ridiculousness? I know that Customs has some Constitutional power for searches and so on (and there's that insane 100-mile "border" where people can…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_search_exception

You're required to present proof of citizenship and allow a "routine" search of your belongings for contraband. A "non-routine" search requires them to have a reasonable suspicion about you specifically. My own reading is that a backscatter scan or s search of your body would count as non-routine, but of course a court may disagree.

Re: Re-entry to US without backscatter or pat-down

#32

Post by RyanMcGreal » Tue, Nov 23, 2010, 12:52 AM UTC

trunnell wrote: post #22

This is what elections are for. Did you know you can be stopped and searched without a warrant within 100 miles of the physical border? [1] Between that and this new screening policy for re-entry at international airports, I think we've crossed a line. Everyone I talk to about this is outraged . If we still have a functioning democracy, these policies will change. It's somewhat expected that now and then the governme…

>This is what elections are for.

Voting once every two or four years and ceding policy to the politicians in the meantime is a recipe for the kind of bipartisan nonsense that pervades the US government. If you want things to get better, you need to get involved between elections.

Re: Re-entry to US without backscatter or pat-down

#33

Post by dshep » Tue, Nov 23, 2010, 12:54 AM UTC

Awesome, more people need to stand up for their rights like this.

Re: Re-entry to US without backscatter or pat-down

#34

Post by Eil » Tue, Nov 23, 2010, 12:56 AM UTC

I agree entirely with the author's cause and I believe that the guilty-until-proven-innocent mindset of present airport security is wrong and should be unconstitutional.

However, upon reading the article I very much got the impression that the author was refusing to be scanned or searched just to make trouble. When asked why he was refusing to be searched, his answers (in his own writing) seemed to be along the lines of, "because I don't feel like it." I'm sorry, but that's just not really a valid defense. Whether you feel it's constitutional or not, the law says you have to go through these checkpoints when selected. If you're going to refuse, you need to have a much better reason than you don't feel like it.

Ultimately, it sounded to me like they escorted him out of the terminal simply because they were tired of dealing with him, not because he found a loophole in their logic or rules. Less well-mannered officials would have put him in jail for a judge to deal with in the morning.

Re: Re-entry to US without backscatter or pat-down

#35

Post by dpatru » Tue, Nov 23, 2010, 12:59 AM UTC

swombat wrote: post #15

acabal wrote: post #10

Oh wow, I had no idea they scan you after re-entering the country. I'm flying to Chicago O'Hare from London Gatwick on Dec 2, and now I'm concerned about this. Does anyone know precisely what my rights are as a US citizen upon re-entering the country to avoid all of this ridiculousness? I know that Customs has some Constitutional power for searches and so on (and there's that insane 100-mile "border" where people can…

Your mileage may vary, but it sounds to me like he was claiming his constitutional rights... "Am I being detained? Am I free to go?" seems to be a key-phrase of people who know their rights when faced with police officers. That, and verbally not consenting to any search - your person is also protected by constitutional rights, afaik. (note: I'm not American, I may be wrong)

The Fourth Amendment to the Constitution restricts government's ability to seizure people. A person is seized when a reasonable person in that situation would feel that they are not free to leave. Normally, seizure requires a warrant, but there are exceptions, all of which I think require that the seizing officer have probable cause that a crime has been committed and the person who committed the crime is the one being seized.

By asking the police officer if he was free to go, the traveler was triggering this kind of analysis in the officer's head. The officer knows that he cannot seize without probable cause. He can probably temporarily detain the traveler while the TSA investigate the situation, but ultimately, if there's no probable cause, the traveler must be allowed to leave.

Re: Re-entry to US without backscatter or pat-down

#36

Post by ams6110 » Tue, Nov 23, 2010, 1:00 AM UTC

ben1040 wrote: post #27

chc wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand the point of that point. If the reason for the X-ray machines is to stop people from smuggling dangerous materials onto planes and using them to cause harm, scanning people after they get off the plane is the most literal analogue I've ever seen for shutting the barn door after the horses have fled. Imagine a daycare center that had a policy of running background checks on its employees only once t…

I'm guessing the issue is that the physical layout of the terminal is designed under the assumption that everyone arriving on an international flight is connecting to a domestic flight, and CVG was not their final airport. In that case, they want people screened by US personnel against US policies before boarding those domestic flights. It still seems like a waste of time and money for the TSA to screen people who ar…

I don't do much (hardly any) international travel, but in my experience, in US airports the international arrivals and domestic departures are physically separate security zones. You can't get off an international flight and hop on a domestic flight without going through security again.

Re: Re-entry to US without backscatter or pat-down

#37

Post by dedward » Tue, Nov 23, 2010, 1:05 AM UTC

Eil wrote: post #34

I agree entirely with the author's cause and I believe that the guilty-until-proven-innocent mindset of present airport security is wrong and should be unconstitutional. However, upon reading the article I very much got the impression that the author was refusing to be scanned or searched just to make trouble. When asked why he was refusing to be searched, his answers (in his own writing) seemed to be along the lines…

This was not about airport security - he had already de-planed and was trying to leave the airport, having already passed through immigration.

One of the things the US is supposed to be really big on is freedom from Big Brother. Having legally entered his own country, not attempting to get on another plane, and offerring to cooperate as long as someone, under color of authority, would verbally go on record that he was required by law to do so, with specifics. Nobody was willing or able to actually do this. Nobody was clear about jurisdiction. The police wouldn't do anything without the TSAs instructions.

The TSA didn't know what's up - and I for one would like the people in charge of security in the airport to know what's up, right?

EDIT: From the sounds of things this really was more about poor airport design and people flow as well as misunderstanding of policies.

Re: Re-entry to US without backscatter or pat-down

#38

Post by sandipc » Tue, Nov 23, 2010, 1:05 AM UTC

I fully agree with most of the civil liberties and health concerns I've been reading online about these "Federal Security Detectors," and it certainly is ridiculous that you have to be scanned AFTER flying and AFTER passing through customs just to get home from the airport, but seeing as TSA agents are really just there to carry out policy given to them from their superiors, it seems a little silly to claim that such an action "prove[s] that it is possible."

With an organization with as many employees as the TSA, it seems to me that whether or not one can bypass security really just depends on the specific TSA agents and supervisors dealing with a specific case. This isn't really a blueprint for bypassing TSA security... more like a personal anecdote of a time when the author bypassed security because the TSA/airport security were tired of dealing with him.

Re: Re-entry to US without backscatter or pat-down

#39

Post by obiefernandez » Tue, Nov 23, 2010, 1:07 AM UTC

When you arrive from an international flight at Atlanta airport, you have to go through security to get out of customs because there is no direct exit out to the street. In other words, when you arrive and go through border control and customs, the only way to get out of the airport is to go through the other terminals. I wonder if the same applies at Cincinnati/N. Kentucky airport.

Re: Re-entry to US without backscatter or pat-down

#40

Post by carbocation » Tue, Nov 23, 2010, 1:08 AM UTC

dpatru wrote: post #6

param wrote: post #2

What? I wasn't aware you needed to be irradiated just to enter into the US, even without planning to take any more flights. What is the rationale behind that?

This is exactly the question that they should have to answer before a judge. Laws at minimum must have a rational basis, there must exist some scenario in which the law makes sense. Irradiation before a flight may protect against terrorist attack. Irradiation after the time of danger has past makes no sense at all.

I'm not sure that laws in general really need a rational basis[1], but invasive exceptions to your Fourth Amendment right require a rational basis (i.e., a reasonable suspicion).

[1] What seems rational to some might seem irrational to others.