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Maya ritual cave ‘untouched’ for 1k years stuns archaeologists

nationalgeographic.com

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Re: Maya ritual cave ‘untouched’ for 1k years stuns archaeologists

#51

Post by EForEndeavour »

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #42
nickjj wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What bothers me about pictures like that isn't so much having to cram through the tight space. It's the cave collapsing and being squished to death with a 0% chance of survival. Do other people who are semi-claustrophobic fear the literal tight place, or dying from something going wrong that's out of your control? The same thing applies to heights. I have no problem with heights at all but ladders bother me a lot bec…

You live in a universe where astronomical events lightyears away can obliterate life on earth with no advance warning whatsoever. Being in control is an illusion.

The fact that all life on earth could theoretically be snuffed out without warning doesn't mean there aren't more mundane terrestrial factors that we can control, and should, assuming you're into things like comfort and survival.

Oddly, this reminds me of my mild fear of driving. I can't ignore the fact that at any moment while driving, I or anyone driving near me could apply a few paltry newtons of force in a way that causes massive injury and destruction, changing or ending lives. Every time I get behind the wheel, I have to wonder at how casually I'm about to pilot a huge mass at lethal speeds around hundreds of other people casually doing the same thing. There's nothing I can directly do to affect the mistakes of others, but I accept the risk of freak accident and resolve to do what I can to at least reduce the risk of disaster (drive defensively). Analogously, we all accept the (demonstrably small) risk of annihilation by, e.g., gamma-ray burst, and go about our lives.

Re: Maya ritual cave ‘untouched’ for 1k years stuns archaeologists

#52

Post by toyg »

Something is weird.

> After its initial discovery by farmers in 1966, Balamku was visited by archaeologist Víctor Segovia Pinto

Segovia Pinto reportedly died in 1955, according to this source: https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=&sl=es&tl=en&u=htt...

1955 was 11 years before the reported discovery. Either there is a typo somewhere, or Pinto was not the original discoverer. Pinto was a bit of a celeb at the time, so it's entirely possible that someone erroneously attributed to him what happened in 1966, or that the discovery happened before but was only recorded in 1966.

Re: Maya ritual cave ‘untouched’ for 1k years stuns archaeologists

#53

Post by bitL »

nickjj wrote: post #40
eps wrote: post #4

"Explorers needed to crawl for hours just to reach first of seven offering chambers"... followed by a shot of one of them, flat of his stomach, clawing at the surface and just barely squeezing through, head turned sideways. I am not a claustrofobic person, but this is... damn... this feels suicidal. Makes you realize that some people are wired way differently than others. Edit - https://imgur.com/EHrwHs3.jpg

What bothers me about pictures like that isn't so much having to cram through the tight space. It's the cave collapsing and being squished to death with a 0% chance of survival. Do other people who are semi-claustrophobic fear the literal tight place, or dying from something going wrong that's out of your control? The same thing applies to heights. I have no problem with heights at all but ladders bother me a lot bec…

I did some spelunking as a teen (lived in an area with 100+ caves), and you sometimes heard about stone blocks ramming down with climbing speleologists in large underground halls, higher levels of carbon dioxide preventing breathing or sudden flash-floods preventing escape. Not so much about sudden cave collapses (I guess in earthquake areas that's always a possibility).

When I was in the dark, squeezing through tiny holes in various angles, I felt a bit like having an "out-of-body" experience, where my brain visualized my whereabouts in some kind of 3D map and internally I was looking at the whole 3D map "from outside"; like viewing an autonomous robot making its moves. It was quite fascinating. I guess sensory deprivation allowed the "3D mapping signal" to be perceivable and dominant.

Also, given there is no smell inside caves, if you spend a few hours/days inside, then climb back to surface, upon entering ground you are hit by a wall of smells you never perceived before. Suddenly you can distinguish individual flowers, trees, grass, soil etc. That however only lasts a few seconds :-(

Re: Maya ritual cave ‘untouched’ for 1k years stuns archaeologists

#54

Post by BurningFrog »

kieckerjan wrote: post #16
eps wrote: post #4

"Explorers needed to crawl for hours just to reach first of seven offering chambers"... followed by a shot of one of them, flat of his stomach, clawing at the surface and just barely squeezing through, head turned sideways. I am not a claustrofobic person, but this is... damn... this feels suicidal. Makes you realize that some people are wired way differently than others. Edit - https://imgur.com/EHrwHs3.jpg

I once got so claustrophobic just by reading a book about caving that I had to put it away: Blind Descent by James Talbot. It describes the quest of a couple of maniacs to explore the deepest caves on earth under hellish circumstances. No light for weeks, no communication with the surface, camping against vertical walls in the dark, hurricane level winds, tight sumps full of dark water, disease, panic attacks... Man,…

> who in his sane mind does things like that?

The usual estimation is that 5% of the population is insane, and I guess they do fill a purpose :)

Re: Maya ritual cave ‘untouched’ for 1k years stuns archaeologists

#55

Post by elpakal »

I was born and lived for some time in the nearby state of Chiapas. Currently a coder working in a big city, fighting traffic and pollution every day, away from wife and kids, worrying about production issues, health, etc. When I see articles about discoveries like this it always brings me back to my childhood days driving around the Palenque ruins, seeing the miles and miles of hills which were obviously ruins that had become overgrown but that the government had yet to uncover. There are countless more discoveries like this just waiting in plain sight. Knowing that always gives me some kind of peace inside - what we know about ourselves and how we have evolved is very little.

Re: Maya ritual cave ‘untouched’ for 1k years stuns archaeologists

#56

Post by toyg »

xmichael999 wrote: post #39
ngold wrote: post #8

Sealed up for 50 years after it was discovered is one of the greatest gifts to modern archeology ever. I can't fathom the loss of truly insightful historical knowledge that would have been lost if it was tampered with 50 years ago. What a hero to the future of humanity in understanding our past.

Is that why he sealed it up, the article doesn't explain that was his logic. Are you finding this info somewhere else?

It's not so much about the technology as much as the attention and care that can be given to the findings. Even in the past, most material treated with the utmost care and respect would have "survived" (in the sense that it wouldn't have lost a huge amount of precious hints about its true nature).

Postwar times in South America were... complicated, particularly the '60s. A responsible archeologist, be it Pinto or someone else, likely made an assessment that the country was not ready to pay this material the case and attention that it deserved, and decided to simply protect it by leaving it where it was. This happens elsewhere all over the world - in Italy, ancient findings are routinely re-buried when its care cannot be guaranteed for some reason. The practice was a bit less common back then, but not an impossibility - particularly for an already-established archeologist who didn't need more accolades.

Re: Maya ritual cave ‘untouched’ for 1k years stuns archaeologists

#57

Post by plink »

mrhappyunhappy wrote: post #43
atwebb wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Caving can be incredibly fun as well, tight squeezes can come with the territory but there's plenty of horizontal walking/borehole opportunities. It is pretty geographically dependent. This one always gets me a bit: https://gfycat.com/responsibleboweddalmatian-exploration-cav... I'm wondering if there's not a second entrance or something that sumped and connects, in the US some tracks are a mile or so back but severa…

I’m going to have nightmares after seeing that gif. How can these people be ok with that?

Also, does the notion of eventually needing to turn around never stymie them?

Re: Maya ritual cave ‘untouched’ for 1k years stuns archaeologists

#58

Post by toyg »

JohnJamesRambo wrote: post #46
eps wrote: post #4

"Explorers needed to crawl for hours just to reach first of seven offering chambers"... followed by a shot of one of them, flat of his stomach, clawing at the surface and just barely squeezing through, head turned sideways. I am not a claustrofobic person, but this is... damn... this feels suicidal. Makes you realize that some people are wired way differently than others. Edit - https://imgur.com/EHrwHs3.jpg

Some people are even claustrophiles. Isaac Asimov was a famous one. Being in tight spaces makes them feel safe, although being actually stuck may not have the same effect.

Thanks for giving me a word that describes my instinct. I do tend to prefer small spaces.

This said, there are limits - in places like that caving gif upthread, I'd freak the hell out.

Re: Maya ritual cave ‘untouched’ for 1k years stuns archaeologists

#59

Post by peterlk »

elpakal wrote: post #55

I was born and lived for some time in the nearby state of Chiapas. Currently a coder working in a big city, fighting traffic and pollution every day, away from wife and kids, worrying about production issues, health, etc. When I see articles about discoveries like this it always brings me back to my childhood days driving around the Palenque ruins, seeing the miles and miles of hills which were obviously ruins that h…

"... We need wilderness preserved--as much of it as is still left, and as many kinds--because it was the challenge against which our character as a people was formed. The reminder and the reassurance that it is still there is good for our spiritual health even if we never once in ten years set foot in it. It is good for us when we are young, because of the incomparable sanity it can bring briefly, as vacation and rest, into our insane lives. It is important to us when we are old simply because it is there--important, that is, simply as an idea." - Wallace Stegner

Your comment reminded me of this excerpt of a letter to the American Congress about environmental preservation.

Re: Maya ritual cave ‘untouched’ for 1k years stuns archaeologists

#60

Post by madhadron »

ianai wrote: post #18
terhechte wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't sealing it up another 50 years even better? We don't know which much better technologies we have in 50 years

Speaking as an outsider, I grew up near Hispanic cultures in the Southwest. I think there’s a need for better information about the Maya. For one, there’s a basic lack of understanding of time “before America” across the US. Most I've met seem to operate as though human history in the Americas only started with independence. The colonists wiped out a huge amount of history and culture. We might not have the best tech…

This is a general issue with what is taught as world history, from school textbooks to the doorstops of Toynbee and his ilk. They all start with "western Europe and the societies derived from it are the world" with a brief mention that China is over there, too, and then trace the history of the societies that western European mythology claims as predecessors (Rome, Greece, Egypt). If you compare this to the space and time occupied by humanity on earth, it's ludicrous.
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