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Why American Construction Costs Are So High

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Re: Why American Construction Costs Are So High

#141

Post by matt4077 »

bluedino wrote: post #12

One of my first jobs in IT was for a big general contractor. We built schools, hotels, restaurants, you name it. Whenever we had a government project, like a building for the county, a jail, new secretary of state/dmv office...we went way over budget and way over schedule. EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. We'd have a 'groundbreaking ceremony' and then not be able to actually dig at the site for 12 more days because permits got t…

> How can the government not approve their own permits on time?

I'd consider a positive to see that the government does not get to take shortcuts, but has to abide by the same rules as everyone else.

Re: Why American Construction Costs Are So High

#142

Post by kilburn »

vinay427 wrote: post #33
alwaysdoit wrote: post #32

> In Paris, as well as Athens, Madrid, Mexico City, Caracas, Santiago, Copenhagen, Budapest, and I imagine other cities for which I can’t find this information, metro stations are built cut-and-cover... There is extensive street disruption, for about 18 months in the case of Paris, but the merchants and residents get a subway station at the end of the works. The cost of using a more expensive method ($750M per statio…

I'm actually curious: how do those businesses, particularly smaller ones, survive 18 months of highly impeded traffic?

Also consider that people in those places don't drive everywhere. Foot traffic is hardly ever closed during construction, and most customers reach small businesses by foot. This means that the losses aren't as pronounced as you probably thought.

Re: Why American Construction Costs Are So High

#143

Post by harperlee »

alwaysdoit wrote: post #32

> In Paris, as well as Athens, Madrid, Mexico City, Caracas, Santiago, Copenhagen, Budapest, and I imagine other cities for which I can’t find this information, metro stations are built cut-and-cover... There is extensive street disruption, for about 18 months in the case of Paris, but the merchants and residents get a subway station at the end of the works. The cost of using a more expensive method ($750M per statio…

At least for Madrid this is false. Not even in new development areas is Metro cut and cover, but tunneled.

Re: Why American Construction Costs Are So High

#144

Post by masonic »

thisisweirdok wrote: post #71

The Big Dig in Boston was originally estimated to cost $8 billion. People were upset about this. There were multiple problems along the way. It ultimately ended up costing $22 billion. People were also upset about this. At the end of the day? It was an awesome project. They completely buried a highway that cut through the city, and added a ton of green space downtown (The Greenway). The city is better for it. Taxpaye…

  The Big Dig in Boston was originally estimated to cost $8 billion.
No, $6 billion in 2006 dollars ($2.8 billion in 1982) per Wikipedia.

  It ultimately ended up costing $22 billion
$24 billion, according to the Boston Globe (10 July 2012), yielding a nice, round 300% in overruns.

  At the end of the day? It was an awesome project.
Seriously! It's so nice when your "$6 billion" project gets $8.55 million in Federal funds that the locals don't even have to pay for.

The Big Dig cost almost triple what the entire Panama Canal project did (adjusted for inflation). There's nothing to be proud of there.

Re: Why American Construction Costs Are So High

#145

Post by pas »

enraged_camel wrote: post #16
jonawesomegreen wrote: post #11

News that the Transbay Terminal is something like $300 million over budget should not come as a shock to anyone. We always knew the initial estimate was way under the real cost. Just like we never had a real cost for the Central Subway or the Bay Bridge or any other massive construction project. So get off it. In the world of civic projects, the first budget is really just a down payment. If people knew the real cost…

The politicians can’t have a real conversation about costs because the legal and political complexity of our society has reached such high levels that it is impossible to accurately project costs multiple years into the future.

It's possible, to a degree that would be enough.

But doing a feasibility study that gives an estimate is much different from doing a full plan, which is still quite diferent from having fresh surveyed maps and ready to build blueprints, and all of that is just before doing the first strike with a backhoe.

And it's no wonder everything seems so complex, because the people who are able to cut through the bullshit are usually ignored, because people don't like to accept the fundamentals. They cling to their biased beliefs about costs, project management, design, estimation methods, etc.

Re: Why American Construction Costs Are So High

#146

Post by pas »

harperlee wrote: post #143
alwaysdoit wrote: post #32

> In Paris, as well as Athens, Madrid, Mexico City, Caracas, Santiago, Copenhagen, Budapest, and I imagine other cities for which I can’t find this information, metro stations are built cut-and-cover... There is extensive street disruption, for about 18 months in the case of Paris, but the merchants and residents get a subway station at the end of the works. The cost of using a more expensive method ($750M per statio…

At least for Madrid this is false. Not even in new development areas is Metro cut and cover, but tunneled.

The stations?

Re: Why American Construction Costs Are So High

#147

Post by pas »

knodi123 wrote: post #110
vinay427 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm actually curious: how do those businesses, particularly smaller ones, survive 18 months of highly impeded traffic?

back in college, my favorite chinese joint just two blocks from campus went out of business because their street was torn up, and then permit issues followed by bad weather meant no one could drive or park at the restaurant for something like 6 weeks. starting a restaurant is risky enough, forgoing a month and a half of profit while staying open is just a disaster. I had a crush on one of the waitresses, and she told…

There's a very busy Pho' (Vietnamese) restaurant around here in Budapest that has exactly two parking places, but it's right across from the tram stop and a bus stop.

Of course it stated knowing this, so rather different from starting with a parking provided street and then seeing that change.

Re: Why American Construction Costs Are So High

#148

Post by pas »

wil421 wrote: post #46
dashundchen wrote: post #30

Regarding point 9 about the inability to look outside North America. I always wondered why it seems transit agencies haven't looked to bring in teams of people who have managed/built successful projects in Europe, Asia, or even closer like Mexico City. California HSR for example went to solicit bids from foreign operators and selected Deutsche Bahn/German Railways. But AFAIK the initial design work/RFP/proposals were…

I think you’re confused about what these projects really are. They are not construction projects they are job creation programs. Both the unions and politicians use them as such to bolster their own interests.

That's natural. Unions and politicians will always act in their best interest. And a HSR project seems to be in their best interest. Unions see it as good jobs, politicians see it as something for their constituents.

Of course this backfires when the NIMBY folks don't want anything built, and those who are okay with the idea want it done cheaper. (So the unions are not going to be happy.) So the project stalls.

Re: Why American Construction Costs Are So High

#149

Post by pas »

jimktrains2 wrote: post #38
bluedino wrote: post #12

One of my first jobs in IT was for a big general contractor. We built schools, hotels, restaurants, you name it. Whenever we had a government project, like a building for the county, a jail, new secretary of state/dmv office...we went way over budget and way over schedule. EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. We'd have a 'groundbreaking ceremony' and then not be able to actually dig at the site for 12 more days because permits got t…

"the government" is more a loose confederation of public agencies. They're not a monolith that has the ability to know everything about everything, especially at the local and county levels. I don't know the specifics of that case, but last minute citizen protests or protests that weren't able to be resolved quickly enough are another issue. It's also not like this doesn't happen in the private sector. A company boug…

Who the fuck starts actual work before getting the permits for the future development!?

That makes no sense. Sure maybe they though they can pay the right people and push it through the council by then... but not this time.

Re: Why American Construction Costs Are So High

#150

Post by pas »

ghobs91 wrote: post #98

Those who blame it squarely on unions, explain how Europe has strong unions and yet construction there is orders of magnitude cheaper than in the US? It's because there isn't a proper bidding process. Politicians just give sweetheart bloated contracts to the same contractors every time, and those contractors then "donate to their campaign". If they instead used things like sealed bids and had contractors compete agai…

Unions do what unions can. It's amazing that NYC MTA uses unionized labor for things that could be easily outsourced/contracted.

This strange example of market failure points to us having insufficient information to understand the real transactions. MTA must get something else too from the unions to abide by their rules. (Allegedly it's Cuomo himself who benefits, thus he pressures the MTA.)

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