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Wikileaks promises release 7x bigger than Iraq War Logs, asks for donations

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Re: Wikileaks promises release 7x bigger than Iraq War Logs, asks for donations

#31

Post by tptacek »

grandalf wrote: post #27
tptacek wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Wikileaks Iraq leak (apparently) predominately documented torture by Iraqis. If anything, it enhanced the US narrative, in part by documenting belligerent activity by Iran, and in part by creating a contrast between our professional military and their abusive militias. Part of the US narrative about Iraq (a part that I completely believe) holds that however bad Iraq is now, it's got to be better than decennial wa…

It did enhance aspects of the US narrative, and diminished others. This is a good thing, since it added to the overall truthfulness of the narrative. US strategy has been to hide the proxy war it's fighting with Iran from the American public, while increasing the rhetoric/rancor against Iran, so that eventually if/when there is more open conflict, the American people already view the Iranian people as barbaric subhum…

Your second paragraph doesn't make any sense to me. It seems to suggest that Americans would look more favorably on Iranians if we knew they were helping kill American teenagers.

I feel bad for taking even a baby step further into this political tar pit, but my nerd brain lacks an exception handler for the weirdness it just encountered.

Re: Wikileaks promises release 7x bigger than Iraq War Logs, asks for donations

#32

Post by wmf »

iterationx wrote: post #3

... In October the group released a package of almost 400,000 documents called the Iraq War Logs in coordination with major commercial media organisations. 7 x 400,000 = 2.8m documents? You don't change people's minds by releasing 2.8 million pages of documentation, you change it by repeating your slogan over and over and over.

Wikileaks is no longer about the content of the leaks anyway; it's all about the process of leaking them. Given the assumption that nobody's going to read the leaks anyway, a bigger number is better. New! Now with 7x more leaks!

Re: Wikileaks promises release 7x bigger than Iraq War Logs, asks for donations

#33

Post by GHFigs »

yequalsx wrote: post #19
GHFigs wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

documents about the U.S. torturing people Do you have a specific example of this? Every instance I have seen or heard about refers to the actions of Iraqi security forces. hasn't had any adverse affect on the support for the war. It's proof that people just don't care. At the risk of being mistaken for some kind of right-wing buffoon, I have to say that what I've gleaned from the Iraq war leak has had an adverse effe…

Long before the Wikileaks report there was the report by Major General Taguba which included in it the fact that a man was forced to rape his son while under U.S. custody. In the Wikileaks documents we come to know that the Iraqi forces routinely torture. Our leaders knew this and yet did little to stop it. They refused to allow Red Cross personnel to have access. One can hide behind the fact that it was Iraqis doing…

...there was the report by Major General Taguba which included in it the fact that a man was forced to rape his son while under U.S. custody.

There is no such finding in the Taguba Report.

One can hide behind the fact that it was Iraqis doing this...

Being accurate is not "hiding". The assertion that I read was that Wikileaks had released "documents about the U.S. torturing people". That assertion is false. The distinction is absolutely crucial to what can and should be done about it.

Re: Wikileaks promises release 7x bigger than Iraq War Logs, asks for donations

#34

Post by glenstein »

tptacek wrote: post #14
yequalsx wrote: post #2

One of the most disappointing things about Wikileaks is that the release of documents about the U.S. torturing people and the war going badly hasn't had any adverse affect on the support for the war. It's proof that people just don't care. It's depressing. The need by governments to keep everything secret is a bit irrational. People don't care.

The Wikileaks Iraq leak (apparently) predominately documented torture by Iraqis. If anything, it enhanced the US narrative, in part by documenting belligerent activity by Iran, and in part by creating a contrast between our professional military and their abusive militias. Part of the US narrative about Iraq (a part that I completely believe) holds that however bad Iraq is now, it's got to be better than decennial wa…

Politico called it a "devastating portrait of apparent U.S. indifference to a pattern of murder and torture." BBC said the memos "Show U.S. 'ignored torture'". I only remember the New York Times anything that could be construed as favorable to the U.S. and I'm guessing that your impression was shaped by the NY Times article by Sabrina Tavernise and Andrew W. Lehren.

Anyway, the reports of U.S. indifference and maybe even complicity in Iraqi acts of torture is not enhancing to the U.S. image, which isn't to say misleading reporting couldn't enhance our image after the fact.

Re: Wikileaks promises release 7x bigger than Iraq War Logs, asks for donations

#35

Post by yequalsx »

GHFigs wrote: post #33
yequalsx wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Long before the Wikileaks report there was the report by Major General Taguba which included in it the fact that a man was forced to rape his son while under U.S. custody. In the Wikileaks documents we come to know that the Iraqi forces routinely torture. Our leaders knew this and yet did little to stop it. They refused to allow Red Cross personnel to have access. One can hide behind the fact that it was Iraqis doing…

...there was the report by Major General Taguba which included in it the fact that a man was forced to rape his son while under U.S. custody. There is no such finding in the Taguba Report. One can hide behind the fact that it was Iraqis doing this... Being accurate is not "hiding". The assertion that I read was that Wikileaks had released "documents about the U.S. torturing people". That assertion is false. The disti…

Sorry. My mistake. General Taguba's report showed that a man was forced to have sex with a teenage boy. The boy wasn't his son.

Delivering prisoners to people who you know will torture them is the same as conducting the torture yourself. The distinction is meaningless.

Re: Wikileaks promises release 7x bigger than Iraq War Logs, asks for donations

#36

Post by tptacek »

glenstein wrote: post #34
tptacek wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Wikileaks Iraq leak (apparently) predominately documented torture by Iraqis. If anything, it enhanced the US narrative, in part by documenting belligerent activity by Iran, and in part by creating a contrast between our professional military and their abusive militias. Part of the US narrative about Iraq (a part that I completely believe) holds that however bad Iraq is now, it's got to be better than decennial wa…

Politico called it a "devastating portrait of apparent U.S. indifference to a pattern of murder and torture." BBC said the memos "Show U.S. 'ignored torture'". I only remember the New York Times anything that could be construed as favorable to the U.S. and I'm guessing that your impression was shaped by the NY Times article by Sabrina Tavernise and Andrew W. Lehren. Anyway, the reports of U.S. indifference and maybe…

You're addressing a different issue than the one my comment addresses.

Re: Wikileaks promises release 7x bigger than Iraq War Logs, asks for donations

#38

Post by GHFigs »

yequalsx wrote: post #35
GHFigs wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...there was the report by Major General Taguba which included in it the fact that a man was forced to rape his son while under U.S. custody. There is no such finding in the Taguba Report. One can hide behind the fact that it was Iraqis doing this... Being accurate is not "hiding". The assertion that I read was that Wikileaks had released "documents about the U.S. torturing people". That assertion is false. The disti…

Sorry. My mistake. General Taguba's report showed that a man was forced to have sex with a teenage boy. The boy wasn't his son. Delivering prisoners to people who you know will torture them is the same as conducting the torture yourself. The distinction is meaningless.

General Taguba's report showed that a man was forced to have sex with a teenage boy.

It did not. Please do not mistake me for someone unwilling or unable to do my own research, or someone interested in being lied to. This will be my final comment.

The finding that you are misreporting is on page 17, item I, under the heading "I find the intentional abuse of detainees by military personel included the following acts": "Writing "I am a Rapest" (sic) on the leg of a detainee alleged to have forcibly raped a 15-year old fellow detainee and then photographing him naked;"

If you believe that events transpired differently, that is your right, but it is not supported by the report you cited.

The distinction is meaningless.

Let me reiterate with different emphasis: The distinction is absolutely crucial to what can and should be done about it. Having a clear picture of the problem and being accurate and precise about what is actually going on is essential to finding a solution. Obscuring the problem under a blurry haze of blame is not a solution and doesn't get you any closer to one. It's like trying to untangle a knotted mess of cables by trying to decide which cable's fault it is and then pointing at it harder and harder in the hope that it will resolve itself.

Re: Wikileaks promises release 7x bigger than Iraq War Logs, asks for donations

#39

Post by nubian »

GHFigs wrote: post #15
yequalsx wrote: post #2

One of the most disappointing things about Wikileaks is that the release of documents about the U.S. torturing people and the war going badly hasn't had any adverse affect on the support for the war. It's proof that people just don't care. It's depressing. The need by governments to keep everything secret is a bit irrational. People don't care.

documents about the U.S. torturing people Do you have a specific example of this? Every instance I have seen or heard about refers to the actions of Iraqi security forces. hasn't had any adverse affect on the support for the war. It's proof that people just don't care. At the risk of being mistaken for some kind of right-wing buffoon, I have to say that what I've gleaned from the Iraq war leak has had an adverse effe…

I'm not sure if you're only referring to WikiLeaks, but as for torture:

The CIA's waterboarding regimen was so excruciating, the memos show, that agency officials found themselves grappling with an unexpected development: detainees simply gave up and tried to let themselves drown.

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2010/03/09/waterboarding_f...

"Finally, to keep detainees alive even if they inhaled their own vomit during a session – a not-uncommon side effect of waterboarding – the prisoners were kept on a liquid diet. The agency recommended Ensure Plus."

Re: Wikileaks promises release 7x bigger than Iraq War Logs, asks for donations

#40

Post by yequalsx »

GHFigs wrote: post #38
yequalsx wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry. My mistake. General Taguba's report showed that a man was forced to have sex with a teenage boy. The boy wasn't his son. Delivering prisoners to people who you know will torture them is the same as conducting the torture yourself. The distinction is meaningless.

General Taguba's report showed that a man was forced to have sex with a teenage boy. It did not. Please do not mistake me for someone unwilling or unable to do my own research, or someone interested in being lied to. This will be my final comment. The finding that you are misreporting is on page 17, item I, under the heading "I find the intentional abuse of detainees by military personel included the following acts":…

My mistake again. I misread what was meant by "forcibly rape". I took forcibly to mean he was being forced. However, there are many other things in the report detailing out torture and abuse of prisoners. The point I made stands and is correct. We torture people and the nation, for the most part, doesn't care.

The distinction is meaningless in a moral sense. Our actions are morally reprehensible. I wasn't proposing a solution. I was merely stating facts. We send people to Iraqi security forces knowing they will be tortured. This is reprehensible.

Using your analogy, one must first determine the cables are tangled before a solution is sought. Americans aren't demanding a solution because they aren't aware of it or just don't care.

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