Why American Construction Costs Are So High • Hacker News Board

Re: Why American Construction Costs Are So High

#131

Post by thaumasiotes » Wed, Mar 06, 2019, 1:51 AM UTC

MarkSweep wrote: post #74

The part about mezzanines struck me. BART has huge barren mezzanines. There is not one shop in the entire station. The other subways I've visited in the US (Boston, DC, NYC) also don't have any shops except in some of the largest like Grand Central or Penn station. Compare this with subways and train stations in Japan which often have shops in the mezzanines and sometimes at the platform. There are always at least ve…

At some subway stations in Shanghai (notably People's Square and Xujiahui) there's more space devoted to shops than to the subway proper. (Those are outside the area you have to pay to enter. Inside, there are also shops, but not very many.)

Re: Why American Construction Costs Are So High

#132

Post by thisisweirdok » Wed, Mar 06, 2019, 2:15 AM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #118

thisisweirdok wrote: post #71

The Big Dig in Boston was originally estimated to cost $8 billion. People were upset about this. There were multiple problems along the way. It ultimately ended up costing $22 billion. People were also upset about this. At the end of the day? It was an awesome project. They completely buried a highway that cut through the city, and added a ton of green space downtown (The Greenway). The city is better for it. Taxpaye…

> At the end of the day? It was an awesome project. That's not the problem people complained about though -- the project's eventual quality/utility. The problem people complained about is the cost of the project -- and especially for overpaying for something that could be done for less. And that (overpaying) is a big problem for several reasons: 1) The money could go to other projects to better the city. 2) The money…

Sure, I absolutely think better accountability needs to be in place — but people didn't want the project at $8bn either.

People complained before ground was even broken. Looking at the scope of the project in retrospect, as well as the known unknowns, I'm surprised anyone thought it would cost $8bn ($22bn seems too high, but I'm just an interested layman).

Re: Why American Construction Costs Are So High

#133

Post by thisisweirdok » Wed, Mar 06, 2019, 2:16 AM UTC

ars wrote: post #122

arthur_pryor wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

less constructively: taxpayers who complain about bad infrastructure but who don't want to pay taxes to fund better infrastructure can shut the fuck up. please, , take my money. build me a decent public transit system and provide high quality services.

How much money though? It's impossible to pay for everything. The way you talk you want unlimited funds spent on public transportation - but then what happens to all the other expenses? Just don't fund them? > but who don't want to pay taxes to fund better infrastructure can shut the fuck up. Or maybe, they want limited funds spent. There is nothing at all wrong with that.

Can't speak for everyone, but the consensus here in Massachusetts feels like "I don't use the MBTA so I don't want to pay for it in taxes/tolls." (Surprise, we also have a massive congestion problem because our population increases 300% during the workweek).

It's the I got mine and fuck the rest mentality. People always ignore that infrastructure benefits everyone (and in this case public transit improvements are MASSIVE for the lower classes).

Re: Why American Construction Costs Are So High

#134

Post by thisisweirdok » Wed, Mar 06, 2019, 2:20 AM UTC

ci5er wrote: post #121

thisisweirdok wrote: post #71

The Big Dig in Boston was originally estimated to cost $8 billion. People were upset about this. There were multiple problems along the way. It ultimately ended up costing $22 billion. People were also upset about this. At the end of the day? It was an awesome project. They completely buried a highway that cut through the city, and added a ton of green space downtown (The Greenway). The city is better for it. Taxpaye…

I'm super happy that you are happy. I'm less than sanguine about the fact that you and your people compel others to bear the burden of your personal value choices. As well as paying for the burden of the corruption involved in Bostonian construction projects that (at least) doubled the cost of what it should have gone for.

>As well as paying for the burden of the corruption involved in Bostonian construction projects that (at least) doubled the cost of what it should have gone for

Is there evidence of this? Everyone says it but it always seems extreme (Seriously? $11bn to corruption?). I think there's credence to the fact that these projects often go to the lowest bidders, and in this instance there was a lot of rework done to compensate for cheap materials and poor workmanship.

>you and your people compel others to bear the burden of your personal value choices

New Hampshire is an hour away if you don't want a tax-supported public infrastructure.

Re: Why American Construction Costs Are So High

#135

Post by bane » Wed, Mar 06, 2019, 2:25 AM UTC

icebraining wrote: post #126

bane wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think part of it has to do with how the lines are financed and built. In Japan and Korea for example, individual companies own the lines and stations and basically use them to funnel customers to shopping areas where they actually make their money. In the U.S. they are built as public works projects and owned in the end by some local municipal authority. Since they are public property, there's no incentive/ability…

As far as I know, stations in Western EU are also mostly public works, and they do have shops. As an example, Brussels-Central has multiple coffeeshops (including a Starbucks), a waffle kiosk, a fast-food joint, a newsstand, and even a small supermarket. And funny you should mention libraries; my local public library has a private café inside (not in the reading area, of course).

Ha! I stand corrected!

In the U.S. at least it's pretty rare to see shops of any kind inside of subway stations or libraries. There's a few news stands in some NYC subway stations, but not many. I've been throughout much of Europe and don't recall seeing many stores in most of the subway systems -- but maybe I wasn't paying attention.

But there will be some kind of place to get a bite in many train and even bus stations.

Re: Why American Construction Costs Are So High

#136

Post by thisisweirdok » Wed, Mar 06, 2019, 2:26 AM UTC

lsllc wrote: post #78

thisisweirdok wrote: post #71

The Big Dig in Boston was originally estimated to cost $8 billion. People were upset about this. There were multiple problems along the way. It ultimately ended up costing $22 billion. People were also upset about this. At the end of the day? It was an awesome project. They completely buried a highway that cut through the city, and added a ton of green space downtown (The Greenway). The city is better for it. Taxpaye…

Agreed on the MBTA. However rather than build new lines (e.g. Green line extn) let's put in overhead electrification on the commuter rail and let Green line style trolleys go out to the all of the 'burbs inside 128. Also, we have tolls on the tunnels & bridges around Boston for the locals, but those who live in southern NH (presumably avoiding MA taxes) and are pounding up and down 25 miles of I-93 every day don't pa…

I don't disagree. We should have a lot more streetcars and (everyone has their own priorities). Reducing traffic from the suburbs would be massive.

There's also a huge amount of inequality in Boston proper due to the removal of the elevated Orange Line (which is inadequately serviced by the Silver Line and other busses). The most used bus routes (which mostly serve Roxbury and Dorchester) should be converted.

Agree on the NH front too. I don't envy the people who commute from NH to Boston every day, but they should absolutely be tolled.

I think more radical traffic easing will need to happen eventually. Do we really need hundreds of thousands of people commuting in to sit in some cubicle downtown from 9-5? Shit no. I'm not sure what needs to happen there... reducing property taxes on business that shift their working hours or let their employees work from home X amount of days per week? I hate reducing corporate costs, but what else would convince them?

Re: Why American Construction Costs Are So High

#137

Post by thisisweirdok » Wed, Mar 06, 2019, 3:02 AM UTC

aero142 wrote: post #77

thisisweirdok wrote: post #71

The Big Dig in Boston was originally estimated to cost $8 billion. People were upset about this. There were multiple problems along the way. It ultimately ended up costing $22 billion. People were also upset about this. At the end of the day? It was an awesome project. They completely buried a highway that cut through the city, and added a ton of green space downtown (The Greenway). The city is better for it. Taxpaye…

But is it $22 billion better?

https://www.rosekennedygreenway.org/files/1515/2691/1827/ban...

Yes. Everything green here was once under a highway. It completelpely changed a major portion of the city and opened up routes for other parts of the city to become more developed.

Re: Why American Construction Costs Are So High

#138

Post by frosted-flakes » Wed, Mar 06, 2019, 4:00 AM UTC

zaphod12 wrote: post #88

dashundchen wrote: post #30

Regarding point 9 about the inability to look outside North America. I always wondered why it seems transit agencies haven't looked to bring in teams of people who have managed/built successful projects in Europe, Asia, or even closer like Mexico City. California HSR for example went to solicit bids from foreign operators and selected Deutsche Bahn/German Railways. But AFAIK the initial design work/RFP/proposals were…

NYC MTA brought in the former leader of London's underground and Toronto's public transit

Andy Byford was the CEO of the Toronto Transit Commission and the COO for RailCorp in NSW, Australia, but he was not the former leader of the Underground; he only held managerial positions there (a station manager and general manager of customer service on some lines).

Re: Why American Construction Costs Are So High

#139

Post by purplezooey » Wed, Mar 06, 2019, 4:10 AM UTC

conanbatt wrote: post #26

jonawesomegreen wrote: post #11

News that the Transbay Terminal is something like $300 million over budget should not come as a shock to anyone. We always knew the initial estimate was way under the real cost. Just like we never had a real cost for the Central Subway or the Bay Bridge or any other massive construction project. So get off it. In the world of civic projects, the first budget is really just a down payment. If people knew the real cost…

Thats purely corruption. I always explain to my argentinian friends, used to the petty corruption of putting friends and family in public positions, that the us does corruption at a much bigger scale: at the legal one. The transbay terminal is one of the biggest rip-offs ever. It cost the revenue of sales taxes of the city for years. And it doesn't even work, while the "transient" station that must have cost almost n…

Sorry that temporary one worked like ass. Rainy and wet, cold, hard to navigate around, just a big parking lot and some tents.

Re: Why American Construction Costs Are So High

#140

Post by lsllc » Wed, Mar 06, 2019, 4:11 AM UTC

thisisweirdok wrote: post #136

lsllc wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed on the MBTA. However rather than build new lines (e.g. Green line extn) let's put in overhead electrification on the commuter rail and let Green line style trolleys go out to the all of the 'burbs inside 128. Also, we have tolls on the tunnels & bridges around Boston for the locals, but those who live in southern NH (presumably avoiding MA taxes) and are pounding up and down 25 miles of I-93 every day don't pa…

I don't disagree. We should have a lot more streetcars and (everyone has their own priorities). Reducing traffic from the suburbs would be massive. There's also a huge amount of inequality in Boston proper due to the removal of the elevated Orange Line (which is inadequately serviced by the Silver Line and other busses). The most used bus routes (which mostly serve Roxbury and Dorchester) should be converted. Agree o…

I think streetcars are the solution, they can co-exist on downtown streets with cars then have their own lines when there's space. Did you know there used to be a streetcar that ran from Medford Sq. to Stoneham Sq. through the fells?

There's little to be gained by politicians saber-rattling and telling people to not use cars when there are no practical alternatives. If you don't live within the inner 1-2 city ring around Boston and you're not on the commuter rail, you have no choice but to drive.