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Studying the demise of historic civilisations

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331–340 of 359 posts

Re: Studying the demise of historic civilisations

#331
> While there is no single accepted theory for why collapses

This kind of reasoning rests on the success of disciplines like physics and chemistry where scientists have found general laws upon which they can build solid models of reality (within some extreme limits). History doesn't lend itself well to this kind of thinking IMO, and only serves to cloak the innermost nature of history: it's uniqueness. Instead we should realize the unique characteristics of our culture vs all preceding (and similarities too, by all means). It is a much more difficult exercise, but also much more rewarding since it can lead to a much better understanding of our predicament.

One thing that comes to mind is our complete interconnection and dependency on a few points of failure like no previous civilization. Our demise might not take several decades like the Roman empire, it might be over in a few days if we don't change course(s) and build better resiliency.

Re: Studying the demise of historic civilisations

#332
post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ~600 BC Egyptians claimed it was because the proximity to water protected them from periodic "great conflagrations" and the lack of rain from catastrophic flooding: > "There have been, and will be again, many destructions of mankind arising out of many causes; the greatest have been brought about by the agencies of fire and water, and other lesser ones by innumerable other causes. There is a story, which even you…

Amazing quote thanks for that. It's just inspiring to imagine Plato and Socrates, in a garden, discussing basically the same article we're discussing here.

and a bit sad to note we haven't made much progress since then

Re: Studying the demise of historic civilisations

#333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. I'm gonna cut to the chase: that line is probably the most fascist thing I'm going to read all day, and excepting you, Hacker News has failed to call it out. This idea that war can somehow mythically rejuvenate the ethos or spirit of a country isn't unique to fascism though. It was also common in the jingoist imperial western european powers, and partly used as justification for aggression against neighbors and…

I think you're straw manning a bit there. It's not illogical to say that severe national challenges help rejuvenate society in the long run. You can even see it locally when the power goes out for a few days in a hurricane, and all of a sudden neighbors who barely knew each other for 10 years are pooling resources and talking. War is horrific in the short term, but everyone on this site has benefited from it in some…

> War is horrific in the short term, but everyone on this site has benefited from it in some form.

That's because nobody on this site has died from it.

Re: Studying the demise of historic civilisations

#334
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it is not, case in point: Great Britain

I think judging by the oldest extant constitution (or other equivalent legal document), the US is the oldest.

Depends on your definitions. Great Britain has a "constitution" which is not a single, written document. The Magna Carta is part of it, and dated from 1215.

Re: Studying the demise of historic civilisations

#335
post #114

I'm quite disappointed that the aboriginal cultures of Australia are not factored into this. Bias against the idea that they might have been a civilisation? Oldest oral traditions of any human culture. Oldest, still being worked, mining operation of any human culture. A hippocratic oath encoded in their culture while we, white Europeans, bled people to their deaths. I think this report, while interesting - is not qui…

> A hippocratic oath encoded in their culture while we, white Europeans, bled people to their deaths.

But those doing the bleeding were following the hippocratic oath. They were trying to do good. The issue was stupidity (or, more charitably, lack of knowledge) rather than malice.

Re: Studying the demise of historic civilisations

#336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not a new phenomenon. When I said "relatively new" I meant "in the past 300 years or so". When I said "any old philosophy book" I meant "one written 1500 years ago". I didn't make my frame of reference clear; that was obviously a mistake on my part. Saying things like "new" on a tech forum has a very different meaning compared to "new" in terms of history and philosophy. 300 years ago people were born in to a s…

Still I'm looking for quantitative data, not anecdotal. Things like energy usage measured in joules or Green house gas emissions by weight or climate change by temperature. A philosophy book offers conjecture not evidence.

You want data about energy usage in joules from 100 years before James Joule was born? That's going to be tricky..

Re: Studying the demise of historic civilisations

#337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Coal, actually. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_power_during_the_Industr... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Savery#Application_of_t... Coal mining was a thosand times greater than metal mining by the late 18th / early 19th century: Coal was so abundant in Britain that the supply could be stepped up to meet the rapidly rising demand. About 1770-1780 the annual output of coal was some 6.25 million long tons. V…

"Newcomen's great achievement was his steam engine, developed around 1712; combining the ideas of Thomas Savery and Denis Papin, he created a steam engine for the purpose of lifting water out of a tin mine." [1] Plus that's 700,000 tons of copper, copper ore typically contains 2%? Copper, so your 700,000 tons of copper represents 35 million tons of ore. I'm undecided whether relative weight is even a good comparator.…

My point is and remains that when England leapt ahead of Spain, one primary driver was a tremendous increase in availability of primary energy. Coal replaced other scarce fuels, largely wood and charcoal, rare in both Spain and Britain, and steam engines themselves bootstrapped that process.

The immediate applications of coal may not have been yet more steam power (that waited for Watt in ~1770 and more especially expiry of his patents in 1800), but it was applied to space heat and cooking, glassmaking, and smelting of various metals, though most especially iron. It also freed up limited domestic and importe lumber for shipbuilding.

This at a time when other factors such as Spain's plunder of New World gold an silver were leading to rampant inflation and an early example of what's now called "Dutch Disease". Spain itself has comparatively little coal (mostly in the north), whilst the major industrial powers of 19th century Europe, France, Germany, Austria-Hungary, all had major domestic coal deposits, crucially: located near coasts or rivers. At a time when cargo moved almost exclusively by water, this was absolutely essential.

By comparison, in the US, despite vastly greater coal deposits, wood (generally locally available) remained the primary fuel until the development of railroads (and high-strength steel rather than iron rails, to handle heavily loaded coal cars without splitting, also dependant on coked coal fuel), in the 1880s.

For further references, see Vaclav Smil (Energy in World History, Energy and Civilization, also Making the modern world : materials and dematerialization, on material use), Manfred Weissenbacher (Sources of Power), and Gregory Clark (A Farewell to Alms).

Regards copper ores: as of the 18th century, English copper mines averaged 12% concentration, with high-yield mine typically higher. It's modern ores which are of far lower concentration (though 2% would now be considered high). So cut your overburden estimates by a factor of at least six. And yes, mining costs increase directly with the inverse of ore grade. That overburden doesn't move itself.

The references I'm familiar with all hugely emphasise the use of steam-driven pumps in coal mining, particularly for coastal and subsea coal mines. Though other applications existed. And quantities of energy resource mining tend to be prodigious relative to materials mining. Only water exceeds present-day energy minerals in quantity, followed by rock, sand, and gravel (Smil, Making).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_extraction#Concentrat...

http://ecoinfo.cnrs.fr/article129.html

Re: Studying the demise of historic civilisations

#338
post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

honestly this is just not?true. the Chinese script have evolved, but one can still look at inscriptions from thousands of years ago and understand it. it might be hard for people to understand different dialects in China but they all use the same writing system, standardized in the Qin dynasty. Same with the borrowed Chinese characters in Japanese and Korean. A native Chinese speaker would have little problem reading…

That's no different than saying the English alphabet is just a modified version of the Anglo-Saxon futhorc runic alphabet, and that with a dictionary and a bit of training you could use that too. 'ȝ' becomes 'g', 'Ð' becomes 'D', and we still use 'æ' today, which is also a rune, and they even used 'W'! Also, the number of characters in Chinese has also drastically changed over time. So while many characters have a 1:…

the difference is a single runic symbol does not convey any meaning while the Chinese characters does. which is why it's not hard for the average Chinese speaker to figure out what an ancient Chinese inscription is talking about

Re: Studying the demise of historic civilisations

#339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

honestly this is just not?true. the Chinese script have evolved, but one can still look at inscriptions from thousands of years ago and understand it. it might be hard for people to understand different dialects in China but they all use the same writing system, standardized in the Qin dynasty. Same with the borrowed Chinese characters in Japanese and Korean. A native Chinese speaker would have little problem reading…

Are you seriously claiming that you can understand seal script inscriptions? Are you Indiana Jones?

your language requires Indiana jones, but don't assume that's the case for everyone

Re: Studying the demise of historic civilisations

#340
post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

honestly this is just not?true. the Chinese script have evolved, but one can still look at inscriptions from thousands of years ago and understand it. it might be hard for people to understand different dialects in China but they all use the same writing system, standardized in the Qin dynasty. Same with the borrowed Chinese characters in Japanese and Korean. A native Chinese speaker would have little problem reading…

>Same with the borrowed Chinese characters in Japanese and Korean. A native Chinese speaker would have little problem reading those, although the pronounciations might be a little different The Japanese pronunciation of Chinese characters is absolutely nothing like the Chinese pronunciation of them, and the meaning is sometimes different too. (The Kanji for "letter" (as in a piece of paper you write a letter on) mean…

sure there are edge cases but at least I know it's paper, and i'd be able to figure its actually letter from context in the rest of the sentence
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